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Alt. Format Alolan Ninetales GX/Zoroark GX for Post Rotation (WIP)

Duo

RIP Nessa 2023
Member
Let's start with the list before I get into any explanations since I know not everyone cares for my explanations.

Pokemon x19

Alolan Ninetales GX x3
Alolan Ninetales x1
Alolan Vulpix x4
Zoroark GX x2
Zorua x2
Tapu Lele GX x3
Tapu Koko Promo x3
Volcanion Prism Star x1

Supporter x12

Cynthia x4
Guzma x3
Mallow x2
Pokemon Fan Club x1
Fisherman x1
Lillie x1

Item x17

Ultra Ball x4
Aqua Patch x4
Choice Band x4
Switch x3
Nest Ball x2

Energy x12

DCE x4
Water Energy x8

For starters, I think that Alolan Ninetales GX/Zoroark GX has a lot of value post rotation for several reasons.

- The TCG seems to be moving into a very basic GX/Ultra Beast heavy format. 190 damage is the perfect number to hit, and Alolan Ninetales GX is one of the best ways to hit 190. Super emphasizing the fact that there's no more Fighting Fury Belt.

- Dusk Mane Necrozma GX is relatively inconsistent for a basic GX deck, and it swings for 220 damage anyway making the weakness to metal pretty irrelivent in the near future.

- With N and Brigette rotating, Alolan Vulpix gains a lot of value. This deck naturally maxes out on Beacon and adds Zoroark GX on top of it for even more consistency.

- Added support such as Wake and the return of Fisherman give you a lot more management options with your energy pool. I'd say more so Fisherman than Wake, because turboing Alolan Ninetales GX tends to make you run out of energy, fast.

- With Float Stone rotating and very few decks currently being able to utilize Escape Board as a free retreat, a deck that naturally relies on free retreat like Tapu Koko makes this deck very mobile. The Guzma pivot is real.

- Speaking of Tapu Koko, Koko + Kukui gives Alolan Ninetales GX the ability to hit for 210-230 cumulative damage with relative ease, which is another set of magic numbers currently in the TCG (Zoroark GX for 210, Gardevoir GX for 230). Kukui's draw power is actually decent now as well with no more N and Sycamore (for the time being).

Now let me reason through the card choices as well.

4/3(1) Alolan Ninetales line up - This is the standard line up. I don't believe in the 2 Alolan Ninetales strategy because of the drop in damage output, "wasting" a Vulpix, and the fact that we run Zoroark GX for draw utility means that your opponent will always have something to target for 2 prizes anyway. Tapu Lele GX also says hi.

2/2 Zoroark GX - Just a 2/2 line as it is not intended to be the main attacker and primarily as a draw engine and a discard outlet to activate Aqua Patch.

Tapu Lele GX x3 - No one's ever going to convince me personally to go lower than 3. Not with all of these 1 of supporters in deck.

Tapu Koko x3 - The classic spread damage & free retreater Pokemon. Still just as good as it always has been in Alolan Ninetales decks. I have made room for a 3rd copy, because free retreat has far too much value with Float Stone rotating out of the format.

Tapu Fini GX x1 - One of the best techs for Alolan Ninetales GX, and I still think it holds up. With the addition of Fisherman into the deck, you actually sometimes have the energy to snipe for 120 then go in for the kill with Zoroark GX + Guzma. At the same time, the GX attack is great for when your opponent uses a Beast Ring to super charge their Ultra Beasts and you have no good outs. All around still a fantastic tech in my opinion.

Volcanion Prism Star - A really solid 1 prize attacker that can 2 hit KO all GX's with a Choice Band. Also adds another form of spread damage on top of Tapu Koko in case we need it, and the pseudo-Lysandre effect discarding water helps us reposition the opponent's board while accelerating with Aqua Patch. It's a great tech all around. Please note that the Pokemon switch is your Opponent's Choice, not your choice.

Cynthia x4 and Guzma x3 are standard. Guzma x4 could be considered, but there's no room in my opinion.

Kukui x2 - This was a strategy that was sometimes used in Alolan Ninetales GX decks before. I personally was never a fan of it due to Fighting Fury Belt and the fact that we already have 8 draw supporters in the deck. But now that we have less draw supporters, there's no FFB, and some of the best GXs we have are sitting at 190 to 210 HP, Kukui becomes a pretty good option, especially for hitting 210. The draw 2 is also very welcome.

Steven's Decision and Lillie should not need explanation anymore for post rotation.

After playtesting Steven's Decision in other decks, I actually think this supporter kind of sucks. It has 0 value outside of turn 1 or 2 and guarantees that you'll be one turn behind past that point. It's also just not needed at all when Alolan Vulpix searches your whole Pokemon line up. We have a better option for searching cards in this archetype. Lillie is still good here, obviously.

Mallow x2 - The classic Zoroark GX + Mallow combo is very effective in this deck. Alolan Vulpix should be guaranteeing you at least one Zoroark GX by no later than turn 3. Using Mallow to search 2 cards instead of playing Steven's Decision to search 3 and end your turn is simply better. With N out of the format to have Beacon stick much more often, and with Garbotoxin also out of the format, Zoroark+Mallow combo becomes an incredibly viable option and way better than blind drawing 2 cards with Kukui.

Fisherman x1 - Having played Alolan Ninetales GX before and quitting the deck, one of the big things I disliked about the deck is that you can actually just run out of energy after discards and investing in Baby Alolan Ninetales and having to deal with tanky Pokemon like when Metagross GX was still a thing. Fisherman effectively gives you 12 water energy to work with the whole game. That's more than enough to help you out in bad scenarios.

Pokemon Fan Club x1 - There's no such thing as too much consistency. Pokemon Fan Club is great in decks that run Alolan Vulpix, because you can Fan Club for Vulpix and something else, and then Vulpix can grab you two more things. Particularly in Alolan Ninetales/Zoroark, you can Fan Club for Alolan Vulpix and Zorua, then Beacon for Zoroark GX and Tapu Lele GX to guarantee draw power and supporter next turn. The great thing about this deck is that you don't need multiple copies of everything on your bench. One Alolan Ninetales GX and one Zoroark GX are all you need to get things going.

Crasher Wake x1 - I would not play this supporter without at least 1 copy of Fisherman for the reasons I mentioned above. This deck already runs out of energy quickly, and Wake makes that happen even faster. Fisherman and Wake offset each other to make sure you still have energy to play after using these supporters. Having just one Wake for a good hard search is situationally advantageous.

This card is pointless with Zoroark/Mallow combo in a format with no Garbotoxin. Zoroark/Mallow combo drops 1 card to search 2. Crasher Wake drops 2 energy to search 2. Over discarding energy in this archetype is an actual problem, and I would argue that having 2 energy in hand that you can actually afford to discard is much rarer than having Zoroark GX/Mallow ready to go.

Ultra Ball x4, Aqua Patch x4, and Choice Band x4 are all standard for this archetype. If you question Choice Band x4, it's because you must be hitting 190 with Blizzard Edge, always.

Switch x3 - I play this instead of Escape Board because I always want Choice Band on my attackers, not escape board. Also, this is a deck that doesn't mind paying the 1 energy cost to retreat due to Aqua Patch. This coupled with Tapu Koko gives you flexibility with your mobility depending on what kind of bench line up you end up with.

Nest Ball x2 - I'm going with the Nest Ball + Lillie set up in this deck because as long as you can put an Alolan Vulpix into the active, you're going to be able to set up just fine. Pokemon Fan Club I feel is not the better option here when you might opt for Wake, Lillie, or Steven's Decision instead. Having Nest Balls allows you to set your basics while playing those supporters.

Energy pool is standard. Don't fix what isn't broken.

I decided not to play Brooklet Hill as it finds only my Vulpixes and Tapu Fini GX, and in a match against Buzzwole GX or Zoroark/Lycanroc, I only help my opponent OHKO my own Zoroark GXs faster.

I believe this deck has a realistic opportunity to function well in the post rotation meta. Feedback always welcome, and if I missed some cards in newer sets please do bring them up.
 
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I think if you’re running a singleton of Lillie or Steven’s Decision, pick one or the other. Both cards usage are very limited after T1 and won’t serve much a purpose.

Lillie could see some use after T1, But Decision won’t.
 
I think if you’re running a singleton of Lillie or Steven’s Decision, pick one or the other. Both cards usage are very limited after T1 and won’t serve much a purpose.

Lillie could see some use after T1, But Decision won’t.

This is a fair assessment, but I'm currently still keen on the idea of running 1 of each. I'd like the play the right card for the right kind of hand. If your opening hand is unplayable but contains good cards you can use with a handfix, Steven. If your opening hand is very playable, Lillie to extend your hand.

There's also the fact that Steven ending your turn is great for turn 1 going first, but not as good for turn 1 going second, especially if you want to Beacon with Alolan Vulpix or use the supposedly upcoming reprint of Dunsparce to search for 3 basics. You can't end your turn if you're relying on an attack.

Considering it's only 1 card slot to cover a lot more turn 1 situations, I think it has enough value in that regard to warrant keeping both.

Whichever one you don't end up using, just discard it with Zoroark GX or Ultra Ball when you see it in your hand.
 
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This is a fair assessment, but I'm currently still keen on the idea of running 1 of each. I'd like the play the right card for the right kind of hand. If your opening hand is unplayable but contains good cards you can use with a handfix, Steven. If your opening hand is very playable, Lillie to extend your hand.

There's also the fact that Steven ending your turn is great for turn 1 going first, but not as good for turn 1 going second, especially if you want to Beacon with Alolan Vulpix or use the supposedly upcoming reprint of Dunsparce to search for 3 basics. You can't end your turn if you're relying on an attack.

Considering it's only 1 card slot to cover a lot more turn 1 situations, I think it has enough value in that regard to warrant keeping both.

Whichever one you don't end up using, just discard it with Zoroark GX or Ultra Ball when you see it in your hand.

My biggest concern is that Decision is too situational. By your admission, it’s only good if you go first AND need a better hand. Lillie is good whether you go first or second, and you have Alolan Vulpix who really needs to be using Beacon any chance it can get before it goes full Ninetales

If you were running a build where the basics had attacks that were rather inconsequential, I think Steven’s Decision would pull a bit more weight. But since Beacon is so incredibly powerful towards setting yourself up at a faster rate than your opponent, I think the usage of Beacon would outweigh the possibility of having to use Decision.

If you do test this out, I’m curious to know if Decision and Lillie stay in the build. If it weren’t for the fact that Alolan Vulpix is an amazing Pokémon to start the match, I’d be more onboard with Decision as you have a pretty good chance of getting 1st turn Steven’s Decision. It’s just that the coin toss at the beginning of the game determines which Supporter becomes dead and I’m not sure if that’s the best optimization. Especially since you need a way to win the Stadium war and Brooklet Hill would help here.
 
My biggest concern is that Decision is too situational. By your admission, it’s only good if you go first AND need a better hand. Lillie is good whether you go first or second, and you have Alolan Vulpix who really needs to be using Beacon any chance it can get before it goes full Ninetales

If you were running a build where the basics had attacks that were rather inconsequential, I think Steven’s Decision would pull a bit more weight. But since Beacon is so incredibly powerful towards setting yourself up at a faster rate than your opponent, I think the usage of Beacon would outweigh the possibility of having to use Decision.

If you do test this out, I’m curious to know if Decision and Lillie stay in the build. If it weren’t for the fact that Alolan Vulpix is an amazing Pokémon to start the match, I’d be more onboard with Decision as you have a pretty good chance of getting 1st turn Steven’s Decision. It’s just that the coin toss at the beginning of the game determines which Supporter becomes dead and I’m not sure if that’s the best optimization. Especially since you need a way to win the Stadium war and Brooklet Hill would help here.

I'm not 100% onboard with the fact that running Alolan Vulpix means that this deck doesn't benefit from other search outlets. I can find my Pokemon, which leads to finding my supporters at times, sure, but what about my energy and items?

I think any deck that runs a copy of Steven's Decision can still play it beyond turn 1. I was simply comparing its usages as a turn 1 card since playing it under a situation where you can't attack is optimal.

But this also means in situations where attacking for turn wouldn't help you because you're short on energy anyway or don't have the right set up going, Steven's Decision still becomes a massively valuable card.

An example of an extremely effective Steven's Decision is using it to search out Water Energy, Aqua Patch, and Choice Band, assuming you have Zoroark GX set up and, say, DCE in hand for next turn attach. The following turn you get to attach your Choice Band, Trade to discard Water, Aqua Patch it back on, and attach DCE assumedly to have a Blizzard Edge ready to go.

Now I understand that Wake is an in-theme supporter that also searches from the deck, but he only searches 2 cards at the price of 2 energy - 2 energy that you might be needing in the next few turns. The point I'm getting at, still, is flexibility. You don't want to deny yourself the opportunity to set up a perfect turn, because you simply aren't going to be going in swinging for damage every turn of the game.

As for Brooklet Hill, I mentioned in the original post that I purposefully chose Nest Ball over Brooklet Hill because I don't want to make Buzzwole GX and Zoroark/Lycanroc GX variants have an even easier time KOing my Zoroark GXs due to the fightning weakness and my opponents having an easier way of searching out fighting Pokemon like Diancie Prism Star. I have no reason to give my opponents any advantage like that when I have an internal Pokemon search engine built into Alolan Vulpix. You don't need to participate in stadium wars to be a viable deck or archetype, and if other people are packing Brooklet Hill, then by all means I'll let them help me out. Also I chose Nest Ball over Brooklet Hill because Brooklet Hill can't search Tapu Koko Promo or Zorua. Nest Ball has far more searching range.

I will be getting to some actual playtesting soon, running this deck against Gardevoir GX and Ultra Necrozma GX for post rotation.
 
I'm not 100% onboard with the fact that running Alolan Vulpix means that this deck doesn't benefit from other search outlets. I can find my Pokemon, which leads to finding my supporters at times, sure, but what about my energy and items?

I think any deck that runs a copy of Steven's Decision can still play it beyond turn 1. I was simply comparing its usages as a turn 1 card since playing it under a situation where you can't attack is optimal.

But this also means in situations where attacking for turn wouldn't help you because you're short on energy anyway or don't have the right set up going, Steven's Decision still becomes a massively valuable card.

An example of an extremely effective Steven's Decision is using it to search out Water Energy, Aqua Patch, and Choice Band, assuming you have Zoroark GX set up and, say, DCE in hand for next turn attach. The following turn you get to attach your Choice Band, Trade to discard Water, Aqua Patch it back on, and attach DCE assumedly to have a Blizzard Edge ready to go.

Now I understand that Wake is an in-theme supporter that also searches from the deck, but he only searches 2 cards at the price of 2 energy - 2 energy that you might be needing in the next few turns. The point I'm getting at, still, is flexibility. You don't want to deny yourself the opportunity to set up a perfect turn, because you simply aren't going to be going in swinging for damage every turn of the game.

As for Brooklet Hill, I mentioned in the original post that I purposefully chose Nest Ball over Brooklet Hill because I don't want to make Buzzwole GX and Zoroark/Lycanroc GX variants have an even easier time KOing my Zoroark GXs due to the fightning weakness and my opponents having an easier way of searching out fighting Pokemon like Diancie Prism Star. I have no reason to give my opponents any advantage like that when I have an internal Pokemon search engine built into Alolan Vulpix. You don't need to participate in stadium wars to be a viable deck or archetype, and if other people are packing Brooklet Hill, then by all means I'll let them help me out. Also I chose Nest Ball over Brooklet Hill because Brooklet Hill can't search Tapu Koko Promo or Zorua. Nest Ball has far more searching range.

I will be getting to some actual playtesting soon, running this deck against Gardevoir GX and Ultra Necrozma GX for post rotation.

I think you are good with items and energy. Maybe remove 1 switch for another water energy.

I honestly think that the loss of Max Elixir, Strong Energy, and Float Stone are going to hurt Buzzwole-centric decks and make them difficult to operate. At least, if they intend to function, they are going to need to be paired with something like Zoroark-GX because Buzzwole decks will need a way to deal with Dawn Wings Necrozma-GX or else it gets dumpstered.

That and Buzzwole by itself cannot hit good numbers without two Prism Star cards, and that on paper looks incredibly flimsy.

Basically, Buzzwole won’t be as big a deal as it is now.

But also test against Beast Box as they are very hyper aggressive builds. The big thing is to see if you can “get out of a corner” with them
 
What about a 1 of of Volc prism? You can 1. Force them to move an attacking 'mon to the bench to buy some time or to snipe 2. move a damaged 'mon to the bench and guzma them back out to attack with a fully charged bench pokemon from aquapatch 3. another non-gx attacker that hits 130 with band, tanks shots better than baby tales and spreads 20 in the process. Other than that I like this list, I played it before the ultra beasts were released and will likely go back as well.
 
Thanks for bringing Volcanion Prism to my attention - I only knew about Shining Volcanion from Shining Legends.

It seems like a really solid card. Choice Banded it can 2 hit KO any GX in the active, and spreading 20s around at the same time really helps out with the math, just like Tapu Koko Promo.

The Lysandre effect is also very interesting - it becomes another energy discard outlet so that we can accelerate with Aqua Patch, and playing Fisherman allows me to not regret my energy discards nearly as much.

I think it might even be worth replacing Tapu Fini GX with this, because the damage/energy ratio on Volcanion Prism is quite a bit better, it has a very useful ability, and it doesn't lose you 2 prizes when it gets KO'd. I don't really know what else I would remove to play it. I want more than 1 Tapu Koko Promo because I'm not playing Rescue Stretcher, and because I'm me, I refuse to go down from 3 Tapu Lele GX in any deck list, especially post rotation when draw supporters are more scarce, so removing Tapu Fini GX would be the "best" choice in my conditions.


EDIT: I also just remembered Cyrus Prism Star. This card needs to find a way into the list to shuffle away things like Malamars into the deck to give this deck a fighting chance versus Ultra Beasts. It also screws with VikaBulu and Gardy GX.

EDIT2: Take that back - forgot Cyrus Prism Star was your opponent's choice. They could just shuffle back Tapu Lele GX and that's really bad for you.
 
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Thanks for bringing Volcanion Prism to my attention - I only knew about Shining Volcanion from Shining Legends.

It seems like a really solid card. Choice Banded it can 2 hit KO any GX in the active, and spreading 20s around at the same time really helps out with the math, just like Tapu Koko Promo.

The Lysandre effect is also very interesting - it becomes another energy discard outlet so that we can accelerate with Aqua Patch, and playing Fisherman allows me to not regret my energy discards nearly as much.

I think it might even be worth replacing Tapu Fini GX with this, because the damage/energy ratio on Volcanion Prism is quite a bit better, it has a very useful ability, and it doesn't lose you 2 prizes when it gets KO'd. I don't really know what else I would remove to play it. I want more than 1 Tapu Koko Promo because I'm not playing Rescue Stretcher, and because I'm me, I refuse to go down from 3 Tapu Lele GX in any deck list, especially post rotation when draw supporters are more scarce, so removing Tapu Fini GX would be the "best" choice in my conditions.


EDIT: I also just remembered Cyrus Prism Star. This card needs to find a way into the list to shuffle away things like Malamars into the deck to give this deck a fighting chance versus Ultra Beasts. It also screws with VikaBulu and Gardy GX.


Yea I absolutely think while Fini has a decent GX attack, forcing your opponents to OHKO a ninetales or else you can just GX the damage puts a lot of pressure on them so I'd rather save a GX attack for that. Also hitting 170 isn't too difficult these days so it leaves you susceptible to easy GX kills. Just think of how many times you've guzma's out a lele on someone else's bench for a easy gx kill, now you have a less useful gx bench sitter that is pretty situational. I do like cyrus in this deck too however if you do go with a more spread route you'd just want to be sure when you're using it so they don't shuffle some weakned 'mons into the deck or late game lele's back into it. It would be so OP if we could pick who we send back haha.
 
I also want to point out real quick that I misread Jet Geyser on Volcanion Prism, and the Pokemon switch is also your opponent's choice, so it's fundamentlly only best for when you want to get rid of your opponent's active for a while, or the Guzma strats you mentioned before.

It's still useful, but it's not total control. Just figured I had to clear that up so I don't bait anyone into thinking the card does something it can't.
 
EDIT: I also just remembered Cyrus Prism Star. This card needs to find a way into the list to shuffle away things like Malamars into the deck to give this deck a fighting chance versus Ultra Beasts. It also screws with VikaBulu and Gardy GX.

EDIT2: Take that back - forgot Cyrus Prism Star was your opponent's choice. They could just shuffle back Tapu Lele GX and that's really bad for you.

I was in the doctors office when I first saw this, I had most of the post typed out. I just got around to posting it now.

Cyrus Prism Star looks like it can be a powerful card, but I think it doesn't do much and only makes a lot of noise.

Malamar decks are going to keep 2 Malamar out and rely on in-hand draw and search power to get back their basics, but you MIGHT shuffle in Dawn Wings Necrozma and/or Ultra Necrozma. I can't map this one out, YMMV. But it seems like you could offset Malamar the most, but a lot depends on timing and if you can go for a KO that turn and force a Malamar in the active slot post-KO. This is the only matchup I can see Cyrus doing anything major, and even then I think it's very "planets alligning correctly".

Zoroark builds will keep 2 Zoroark out. That leaves a couple Trades open. 4 cards plus whatever else they have in their hand. They will recover their next turn and you'll offset virtually nothing. Even if you KO the active, you now have a Zoroark in your face.

VikaBulu doesn't need much bench presence, but they'll keep 2 Vikavolts and hardly anything will change.

Beast Box will probably leave out a Poipole/Naganadel and something where there's an energy investment or...something, depends on the build, honestly. Against the Metal versions, your KO power is questionable and you can get one-shot super easy. They'll sacrifice a GX and come back with Dusk Mane Necrozma or Stakataka and you'll hate life. But in any case, unless you can also bump Ultra Space, they are more than likely going to get 2-3 Ultra Beasts on their bench the next turn. That, and Beast Box decks are incredibly aggressive, so I'm not sure if they are going to give you any leeway in using Cyrus in the first place.


I know you decided against it, but I went ahead and ran a bunch of scenarios as I was thinking of using it too. It's amazingly lackluster!
 
I was in the doctors office when I first saw this, I had most of the post typed out. I just got around to posting it now.

Cyrus Prism Star looks like it can be a powerful card, but I think it doesn't do much and only makes a lot of noise.

Malamar decks are going to keep 2 Malamar out and rely on in-hand draw and search power to get back their basics, but you MIGHT shuffle in Dawn Wings Necrozma and/or Ultra Necrozma. I can't map this one out, YMMV. But it seems like you could offset Malamar the most, but a lot depends on timing and if you can go for a KO that turn and force a Malamar in the active slot post-KO. This is the only matchup I can see Cyrus doing anything major, and even then I think it's very "planets alligning correctly".

Zoroark builds will keep 2 Zoroark out. That leaves a couple Trades open. 4 cards plus whatever else they have in their hand. They will recover their next turn and you'll offset virtually nothing. Even if you KO the active, you now have a Zoroark in your face.

VikaBulu doesn't need much bench presence, but they'll keep 2 Vikavolts and hardly anything will change.

Beast Box will probably leave out a Poipole/Naganadel and something where there's an energy investment or...something, depends on the build, honestly. Against the Metal versions, your KO power is questionable and you can get one-shot super easy. They'll sacrifice a GX and come back with Dusk Mane Necrozma or Stakataka and you'll hate life. But in any case, unless you can also bump Ultra Space, they are more than likely going to get 2-3 Ultra Beasts on their bench the next turn. That, and Beast Box decks are incredibly aggressive, so I'm not sure if they are going to give you any leeway in using Cyrus in the first place.


I know you decided against it, but I went ahead and ran a bunch of scenarios as I was thinking of using it too. It's amazingly lackluster!

Hey no worries (and hope you're okay after a visit to the doctor's). It helps to have these things spelled out in case people are teetering on Cyrus Prism Star and need a little more proof.

I really wish Cyrus Prism Star did allow you to select. It's just Plea GX in the form of a once per game supporter only useable in Water and Metal.

Then again...I guess if people were really desperate, they would purposefully tech in Alolan Vulpix now that Brigette is gone to also let them use Cyrus Prism Star, in which case it would become an incredibly toxic card. Perhaps selecting only 1 benched Pokemon would've been fine, but no point in what-ifs at this point I guess.
 
Updated the list with a few changes.

-1 Steven's Decision
-1 Crasher Wake
-2 Kukui

+1 Tapu Koko Promo
+1 Pokemon Fan Club
+2 Mallow

Explanations also updated in the original post if you care.

The tl;dr version - Steven's Decision and Crasher Wake are inferior search cards compared to Zoroark GX/Mallow combo, especially in a deck that runs 4x Beacon Vulpix to guarantee Zoroark GX set up in a format with no N. Pokemon Fan Club is great if you have Alolan Vulpix in deck. More Tapu Koko Promo means more free retreat & spread damage.
 
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