Finished Mafia LII : The Game World

[Luispipe8]

Okay, I guess this wasn't as nonsense as I thougjt, I gave it a day before we were in another topic.
I'll answer and post some thoughts after I'm back from a Prerelease.

 

[mordacazir]

lol, sure, I told everyone to stop talking.
All I said is that the current discussion is not relevant; or at least until either sm or Camo are lynched/killed and look at their interactions.

You said that the only discussion that was happening wasnt relevant and should be cut off. And you didnt give any alternative to replace that current discussion.

Do you think that if I had not posted the post of me tagging TE, Camo would have still posted that statement about tagging people?

No because Camo noticed that and just made a post about it in Camo-style

Even to me, @scattered mind's behavior seems pretty scummy.
##UNVOTE:
##VOTE: scattered mind

Newbie bandwagon?

The key point is SM thinks I’m likely scum but refuses to use his vote which is town’s best weapon.

I'd say logic is towns best weapon and lynching the best action.

Town should be making reads on most players; scum has to be faking them.

This is so true.
@Camoclone please make a reads list

 

[NinjaPenguin]

I’m not making a scum team I’m just stating who is scummy.

Maybe I'm confused, but from reading your posts it feels like you see scattered as like 80+% scum. If so, I feel like tandem reads with him should be an important part of your thought process. But I digress.

You said that the only discussion that was happening wasnt relevant and should be cut off. And you didnt give any alternative to replace that current discussion.

No because Camo noticed that and just made a post about it in Camo-style

Newbie bandwagon?
I'd say logic is towns best weapon and lynching the best action.

This is so true.
@Camoclone please make a reads list

@mordacazir Answer my question: "What is your point of view and why does it cause you to not see it as a bandwagon?"

 

[Camoclone]

Maybe I'm confused, but from reading your posts it feels like you see scattered as like 80+% scum. If so, I feel like tandem reads with him should be an important part of your thought process. But I digress.

It doesn’t make sense to make tandem reads this early into the game. My reads will change no matter what when SM dies.

 

[mordacazir]

@mordacazir Answer my question: "What is your point of view and why does it cause you to not see it as a bandwagon?"

Sorry lost all my quotes and was too lazy to check and read everything so I just posted what I remembered.
My poiny of view is how I see things. Scattereds bandwagon is far too obvious to be a scum bandwagon. As scum, you try to hide in the masses and vote when no-one notices it (aka GamePhoenix's vote) , but scattereds post was almost straight after camos (or idk even know anymore who it was) so its just stupid to be so fast while you dont even know if the lynch would get any more traction so there would be no reason to vote in that lynch as scum.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Sorry lost all my quotes and was too lazy to check and read everything so I just posted what I remembered.
My poiny of view is how I see things. Scattereds bandwagon is far too obvious to be a scum bandwagon. As scum, you try to hide in the masses and vote when no-one notices it (aka GamePhoenix's vote) , but scattereds post was almost straight after camos (or idk even know anymore who it was) so its just stupid to be so fast while you dont even know if the lynch would get any more traction so there would be no reason to vote in that lynch as scum.

Really good explanation. Let's try this wagon and see where it leads us:
##UNVOTE
##VOTE: GamePheonix

 

[PMJ]

PMJ is also interesting since as town, he ignores D1 cases, but not late D1 cases- he usually makes some kind of a comment.

I do this as scum too. I also don't ignore d1 cases, I ignore rvs, which is not at all the same thing. Also, we still have over a day and a half to discuss things, so I wouldn't exactly call this a late case, especially since I'm late to this party and we still have plenty of time. I see bb also had the same idea.

That said, I had no idea that not only was rvs basically done and over with far earlier than I'd expected, but that sm almost got hammered. So I'm going to try to be more active from this point.

Townies don’t automatically assume the intent of general posts then defend themselves when they aren’t under attack. When you have something to hide it’s easy to view things as attacks. Between this and his response to BB it’s clear that he’s defensive. He uses an unneeded amount of AtE and can’t admit fault. Townies can be wrong and one of the marks of scum is that they refuse to admit defeat on a small point. SM keeps on using words like targeted. Read back. No one was attacked and no response was needed.

This is a good point and probably the strongest piece of (circumstantial) evidence against sm. This is evidenced by his response to bb, which I agree was a bit of an overreaction. bb was answering sm's own question and sm responded immediately on the defensive, taking bb's note of "we have info on you now" to mean some sort of guilty result or way to prove guilt through his posts. His use of the word 'threatened' is telling.

I think sm's argument that Camo was only talking to him would have more weight if NP hadn't also done the thing Camo posted about, but I can see each player's point of view. With that said, I agree with Camo about it being a generalized statement since multiple players were guilty of doing the thing he mentioned. sm just happened to be the last guy who did it, so he construed it as a direct response to him.

I don't like the second post sm made about not hunting for townie points. It was an unnecessary addition to his post and feels like he's trying to distance himself from the idea of saying or doing something for town cred. Ditto for NP.

I'm not seeing the plethora of AtE sm is supposedly using.

PMJ’s day one meta is bad and if you don’t vote for him he won’t change it. I was hoping someone else would follow suit as I can’t do anything by myself.

The early game is almost always nothing but joke votes and the first days of the game is just waiting for someone to say or do something enough to build a silly case on. I don't see the appeal in participating in that. Can you explain why it's so bad?

I can be aggressive and defensive as town as shown in past games and can be confirmed by other players like NP and bbninjas (past hosts that told me that I was aggressive). I don’t see myself as aggressive this game. I simply ask for clarifications and in depth thinking for future analysis of posts, but it is taken as being defensive and aggressive. I have this issue pretty much any game when I’m town where I need to decide, ok should I comment on that obvious point and stress it further, or leave it because people would yell “he is so aggressive”.

Guys, we had it all wrong, this is sm's town meta. He explained how he plays as town and he is playing just like that so there's no way he could ever be scum and shouldn't get a spotlight put on him for doing something really dumb.

Do you think that if I had not posted the post of me tagging TE, Camo would have still posted that statement about tagging people?

Yeah.

As for the bbninjas issue that I thought he tried to scare me. I was just making the point that if you say something like “now that you posted so much we have some interesting information on you” without explaining exactly what your point is is pointless, unless you did that to tease that player.

I think his statement that there was now good info on you kinda was the point. Either that, or it was an addition to his response to your question. Either way this defense is weak.

Readlists aren’t something that’s helpful man. I’ve said this game after game after game. You only make readlists if:
1. You are about to die or be lynched
2. It is the very end of the game
Readlists are useless. You show who you think is scummy in your actions. All a readlist does is show scum how they should be more careful in other situations.

I agree with this like 75%. NP's point about seeing progression is also a good point, since it gives town a way to actively see how a player's reads have changed over the course of the game.

Why? You say this often.

It's usually true. Camo knows how to push a lynch regardless of his alignment, and I think it's easy for scum to just slide on in, especially since this is day one and an airtight case isn't gonna happen. Case in point:

Even to me, @scattered mind's behavior seems pretty scummy.

How? This statement isn't qualified by anything. Your previous posts were all irrelevant RVS dumbness or status updates. You said you've played a couple games before and lurked the last one so you should know better than to make blind posts like that. The position on the wagon leads me to believe you tried to either hammer, miscounting like sm did, or get in on what was looking to be a surefire lynch. Camo's case isn't perfect, but it's good enough for day one, I think, so sm flipping town could be explained away fairly easy. Either way, this vote is ultra sketchy.

##vote: GamePhoenix

 

[Camoclone]

he early game is almost always nothing but joke votes and the first days of the game is just waiting for someone to say or do something enough to build a silly case on. I don't see the appeal in participating in that. Can you explain why it's so bad?

You aren’t wrong but someone has to drag us out of early game. It’s town’s job to do that.

 

[bbninjas]

This post has some good [future reference] stuff in it imo.

@Camoclone, your tendency to post short and random points on scattered post-after-post saying each are key points and that scattered absolutely, definitely needs to be lynched is not particular helpful - it makes everything on scattered hard to follow and understand, and it creates an illusion of legitimacy and much evidence when there isn't (which may or may not be the case, but I'm not following what you're saying so I don't know). From where I stand, the evidence on scattered (and it is significant and lynch-worthy) is abnormal defensiveness and jumpiness, especially that scattered thought I was using a netural statement to threaten him and scare him into not posting - which was clearly not the case in the context.

Re: the read lists; Camo is correct that posting read lists carelessly can easily be anti-town, and will more likely inform the scum's to kill the best people (they learn a very clear picture of the high-risk players, which is what happened last game). You can see the progression by asking plenty of other questions, just getting people talking. Camo has given plenty of information on who he thinks is scummy already.

@Luispipe8 is scummy for immediately writing off the discussion around scattered. This is evident of distancing, non-commital and a anti-scumhunting attitude regardless of how scattered might flip; but if scattered does flip scum, Luis needs to be a lynch option, because there would be a very likely motive - if scum, Luis was writing off any RVS directed at their buddies to prevent it from snowballing into a problem.

QUOTE="NinjaPenguin, post: 2954352, member: 115908"]Really good explanation. Let's try this wagon and see where it leads us:
##UNVOTE
##VOTE: GamePheonix[/QUOTE]

##VOTE: NinjaPenguin First off, I'm not impressed by your vagueness / wishy-washiness over the Camoclone / scattered thing; you say that it's probably t/t, and then later you say it's neutral, lean town. It looks you're playing it safe.

Most problematic is that it took you into late Day 1 to clearly read anyone as scummy (i.e. place a vote and push with intentions to start a wagon), but even then you're still flipping around everywhere. (If you are scum, your quickness to change your vote from morda would suggest that he is a scumbuddy, and you were just covering your butt.) After all of that, you chose perhaps the easiest player of the lot (GP) to push? And I can't even figure out why you are voting GP in the first place..! Why is he no longer covered by the 'newbie card'?

 

[bbninjas]

@PMJ Did you know that GamePhoenix said he has played a couple real life games, as oppose to forum, post-based games?

 

[NinjaPenguin]

This is evidenced by his response to bb, which I agree was a bit of an overreaction. bb was answering sm's own question and sm responded immediately on the defensive, taking bb's note of "we have info on you now" to mean some sort of guilty result or way to prove guilt through his posts. His use of the word 'threatened' is telling

You see, this is the evidence that scattered is scum that I like. But the fact that other people like the rest of this case and not this part is enough to make me quite worried.

I agree with this like 75%. NP's point about seeing progression is also a good point, since it gives town a way to actively see how a player's reads have changed over the course of the game.

I want an opinion here instead of agreeing with both sides: should people be posting readlists at times like this one?

##VOTE: NinjaPenguin First off, I'm not impressed by your vagueness / wishy-washiness over the Camoclone / scattered thing; you say that it's probably t/t, and then later you say it's neutral, lean town. It looks you're playing it safe.

Is there some contradiction here? I think they're both town and my readlist reflects that.
Am I supposed to in your mind think back-and-forth argument must always include scum?

Most problematic is that it took you into late Day 1 to clearly read anyone as scummy (i.e. place a vote and push with intentions to start a wagon), but even then you're still flipping around everywhere. (If you are scum, your quickness to change your vote from morda would suggest that he is a scumbuddy, and you were just covering your butt.) After all of that, you chose perhaps the easiest player of the lot (GP) to push? And I can't even figure out why you are voting GP in the first place..! Why is he no longer covered by the 'newbie card'?

Scum reads are hard when there aren't many scum in a game and I have more "scum groupings" than reads at this point. Maybe when there are 100 non-RVS posts from people not named scattered or Camo, there's a point, but there isn't much out there besides two players I currently have as townies, nope not really. I also have something else that you know I need to work on quite quickly because my deadline for it is this Sunday and I only finished the postgame, which I told you I'd start working on the judging after it was done, this Thursday.

Most problematic is that it took you into late Day 1 to clearly read anyone as scummy (i.e. place a vote and push with intentions to start a wagon), but even then you're still flipping around everywhere. (If you are scum, your quickness to change your vote from morda would suggest that he is a scumbuddy, and you were just covering your butt.) After all of that, you chose perhaps the easiest player of the lot (GP) to push? And I can't even figure out why you are voting GP in the first place..! Why is he no longer covered by the 'newbie card'?

My scumread was very micro and once he explained it was gone. I don't want to explain the GP vote at this point but I can if I really need to I guess.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

You see, this is the evidence that scattered is scum that I like. But the fact that other people like the rest of this case and not this part is enough to make me quite worried.

Instead, we see stuff like "he's too aggressive" or not liking that post where he defended from the comment from Camo that was clearly directed at us two or a lot of pushing at the AtE. And the point that really freaked me out was "town that thinks they were hammered doesn't post like that" because if you're scum and think you're hammered, you would generally stop posting instead of try to give even a couple of final reads. That is actually the main point for him as town, along with being perfectly willing to blatantly OMGUS, imo.

 

[TOTAL_EPICNESS]

i don’t understand the case on GP. It’s based on how he voted for SM which was somehow done so nobody would notice it? I don’t understand that aspect of it what do you mean a vote that nobody would notice

 

[PMJ]

@PMJ Did you know that GamePhoenix said he has played a couple real life games, as oppose to forum, post-based games?

Yeah. That doesn't really change anything, though. The way he said sm was scummy implies he knows what scummy behavior is, but he doesn't care to elaborate on his accusation. Just jumps in, agrees that [current lynch target] is scummy, votes, and dips out. Given that he hasn't posted much outside of rvs, I find the motives behind his sudden vote suspicious. He had to have known that sm was close to a hammer when he cast his vote.

I want an opinion here instead of agreeing with both sides: should people be posting readlists at times like this one?

I don't think so, not this early on. Camo's point is sound and if any player correctly read a scum as scum then it would tell them exactly what to do in order to change that read. I would probably give it a couple game days at least, to give people time to make posts and votes that can be looked back on when the time comes.

i don’t understand the case on GP. It’s based on how he voted for SM which was somehow done so nobody would notice it? I don’t understand that aspect of it what do you mean a vote that nobody would notice

It's easy to just say "yeah I think he's scummy" and toss your vote out. After all, this case already has some steam, so sliding on in with a quick agree and vote shouldn't raise too many eyebrows, until you realize the timing of his vote, and the fact that that was his first post of any worth in this game, are both suspicious. My vote is a pressure vote more than anything, and I suspect NP's is, too.

 

[roz_the_eevee]

I'm having hard situation irl, I'm yet to catch up and start posting actively.

 

[Nick Tornell]

I can see the reasoning behind the case on GP as that is how I played what, five games ago when I was new and now, I can see why people would see am as town after he kept posting when we thought we had the hammer which is something mafia wouldn't normally do unless you are me. So for now,
##UNVOTE:sm

 

[Nick Tornell]

Will check back at noon

 

[NinjaPenguin]

i don’t understand the case on GP. It’s based on how he voted for SM which was somehow done so nobody would notice it? I don’t understand that aspect of it what do you mean a vote that nobody would notice

The "case" on him is really that he's seemingly willing to go along with scattered, Camo, or myself being scum, even though the ones arguing for us three as scum tend to be other ones of us three (that is to say, he seems to go along with whatever people are saying rather than really trying reads for himself). I also don't like that he "thought better" of replying to my comment.
@GamePhoenix Mind giving us some kind of read on a player who hasn't gotten many so far?

 

[GM DracLord]

Please Refer to Post #260 for the Corrected Version

 

[Mariano11887]

The vote count above has a little issue. Here is the good one.

Vote Count Day 01 #3

Majority to lynch is 6

The following vote count is valid as of Post #258

2 - Camoclone - NinjaPenguin #43, GamePhoenix #58, Luispipe8 #119, scattered mind #172
1 - NinjaPenguin - TOTAL_EPICNESS #45, Camoclone #47, GamePhoenix #49, bbninjas #249
0 - TOTAL_EPICNESS - scattered mind #46, NinjaPenguin #56
3 - @scattered mind - TOTAL_EPICNESS #50, Camoclone #117, bbninjas #148, TeamAqua4Life #HEYNICK #153, TOTAL_EPICNESS #158, GamePhoenix #168
0 - PMJ - Camoclone #73
0 - TeamAqua4Life #HEYNICK - Camoclone #81, scattered mind #84
1- Luispipe8 - mordacazir #141
0 - mordacazir - NinjaPenguin #229
2- GamePhoenix - NinjaPenguin #246, PMJ #247

The player that will be lynched it the days end will is tag,

*This vote count doesn't reflect the actual vote weight of each player, if any
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The following players have yet to meet their quota for the day. Failing to do so by the end of the day will result in them receiving the first warning.
@roz_the_eevee
@Luispipe8
@mordacazir
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Day 1 will end at 23th July 9PM [GMT +8] (Timer).
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Activity requirement:
A minimum of 4 posts for each day phase (consecutive posts from the same player with less than 30 minutes of difference between them will be counted as only 1).
That's an average of 1 post per real life day.
People who don't meet this quota will receive a warning.
If you receive 2 warnings, you'll be subbed-out or modkilled, regardless of alignment.
This doesn't apply for players in V/LA.
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