I am not perfectly familiar with all of those cards so you'd have to give me some time to think about it. Also would this be for a budget deck or are Leles okay?
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Alt. Format Solgaleo GX/Newgaleo GX Deck List + Explanation
- Thread starter Duo
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I am not perfectly familiar with all of those cards so you'd have to give me some time to think about it. Also would this be for a budget deck or are Leles okay?
Great, thanks for explaining! Based upon what you mentioned, your ideal set up seems very fragile. If you miss the turn one Brigette, you lose just because that one turn of set up sets you so far back. The list you had posted may not support the way you are suggesting to play (just in my opinion) as in that without the acceleration (Rare Candy, Sol Burst GX, 1 Registeel), you are very vulnerable if you can't get those 1,2,3 steel energy turns. To sum it up, your list requires you to have a certain amount a cards each turn and if you miss one of them, your set back a turn. My main point being that even if your opponent wastes a Guzma on a Cosmeom or Cosmog (especially one with energy), they gain two turns by doing so. By being so reliant on your set up, if you miss one thing, your opponent immediately gains the advantage. That is why I suggested you include the Magearna EX, because if your opponent disrupts your set up, they gain the upper hand.
This is just my thought on your explanation of the "turn by turn scenario", but without any experience, it is hard to tell what you need to do. Thanks for the feed back and I hope this helps. Thanks!
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You make a good point, but everything you said also applies to the rare candy build as well.
The logic behind my deck building is "you need the least of the cards that you run the most of."
After turn 1, I need to see just 1 Cosmoem, optimally 2 to fuel my game. I run 4, 4 Evosoda, and 4 Ultra Ball. 12 ways to access it in my opening hand.
After turn 2, I need to see either or both of my Solgaleo GX. I run 2 of each, 4 Evosoda, and 4 Ultra Ball. At this point, let's assume I only have 3 Evosoda and 3 Ultra Ball remaining. That's 8 ways for me to see EITHER evolution.
I need just 1 energy per turn and a DCE on turn 4. I run 9 energy and only need 1 per turn. I run 3 DCE and only need it by turn 4.
I run 8 draw supporters not considering Lele and ultra ball in order to play what I can and reroll for more.
I run Zoroark GX to increase my draw power if I deem it appropriate. If not, no worries.
The rare candy build is a high rolling build. You have much lower odds of getting the pieces that you need, but if you get them in the correct combination you are ahead of the game, theoretically anyway. My main issue with rare candy build in this deck and this deck only is that you run a 2/2/1 line up of stage 2s. Rare candy is not your bottleneck in this high roll set up - you only have 6 ways to see either Solgaleo GX with ultra ball, and depending on your heavy ball count, 7, 8, or 9 ways to see SuMo Solgaleo GX. Reality has it that you can't always ultra ball your hand to oblivion and expect to have something to play next turn, so relying on ultra ball is a little bit of a sad day for everyone. If you play Skyla to grab the missing item for the evolution, you choke your ability to draw any more cards for the turn and commit completely to the hand that you have now. My experience with playing Skyla in Gardevoir GX tells me that it's usually one of the worst plays you can go for. It's almost always better to just Sycamore for a new hand and reroll 7 than to guarantee 1.
As for your energy concern, the rare candy build has the exact same issue. If you want to attack with SuMo Solgaleo GX on turn 3, you need to pass through 3 energy cards in the span of those 3 turns. Either 3 manual attachments, or 1 DCE and 2 metals in discard on turn 2, and then manually attach 1 metal on turn 3. Actually, doing it that way you have to pass through 4 energy cards, and you're asking to see 1 DCE and 2 metal energy within 2 turns - my route only asks for 1 metal energy per turn.
As for getting Guzma'd I explained before that if you Guzma KO a Cosmog or Cosmoem with energy on it, that just gives me energy in the discard pile to accelerate with New Solgaleo GX or Registeel. It's never going to be more than 2 at the point of KO, so it doesn't cost me anything. I also think that it's very realistic to assume that I can get 2 Cosmoem in play on turn 2 simply due to the 12 chances of drawing into it, and I can Sycamore to see 7 more cards to make it happen.
Once upon a time I used to play Salazzle GX (4/3 line)/Lurantis (2/2 line)/Octillery (2/2 line) and ran 4 Evosoda. In over 50% of my games, due to natural draw rates and Evosoda and Sycamore/N, I would have all 3 Salazzle GX, Lurantis, and Octillery in play on turn 2 with the 2 energy on Salazzle. In over 75% of my games I had 2 out of the 3 set up on turn 2. This deck relied on the same strategy - I had to evolve every turn and attach energy every turn. I beat my own Gardevoir deck 7 times in a row with it mostly thanks to Queen's Haze before I learned that 2 hit KOing the deck made Gardevoir GX's energy acceleration far superior. But that's besides the point. All I mean to say is that I have experienced a list that just needs to evolve once and just needs 1 energy per turn, and it's surprisingly consistent.
The Brigette concern is a concern for every Brigette deck. It's not exclusively a bigger problem in my deck in any way shape or form. Honestly, I think prizing Brigette is even worse in rare candy decks, because if you have to resort to a turn 1 sycamore that might have had 1-2 rare candy in it, then you just screwed your own fast evolution and you are forced to take the manual evolution route while running much fewer ways of seeing it, and if you N yourself into something just as bad as before, well then there you go. I've won about 50% of the games that I've prized Brigette, so I really don't think it's as big of a concern as everyone thinks it is.
When you look at the rare candy build, you just add a lot more ANDS to your hand set up. You need to have rare candy AND the correct GX AND the energy in hand. In my list, I only need the next evolution AND the energy. And when you consider evolving multiple Cosmog up at the same time, my list has much greater odds due to reasons I've already explained.
Rare candy builds also demand perfect timing. It HAS to be turn 2 in order for it to be any faster. Any slower than that and rare candy becomes pointless, and you might start Sycamoring away your resources or playing N at a time that would benefit your opponent just to try and make that rare candy speed worthwhile. Outside of the opening turns of the game, you HAVE to see rare candy + stage 2 in hand within the same amount of time as I would see a single evolution over 2 turns.
I've played a handful of stage 2 decks, and honestly I can't stand rare candy. You're praying so much for drawing 1 of 4 rare candy and 1 of 3 or 4 stage 2 GX all the time, and each time you evolve through rare candy, the more exponentially difficult it is to see your 2nd and 3rd evolution through that method, especially if you Skyla and aren't digging into your deck to move probability in your favor. Prior to playing Sylveon GX, I would only ever rare candy/Gardevoir once per game. The rest were manual evolves because if you ask me am I going to play down Kirlia or pray that I top deck rare candy next turn, I'm going to play Kirlia.
To bring this all back, you're absolutely right. If I miss a single piece, then I'm 1 turn behind. But the same goes for every deck. If you miss the piece that you need on the turn that you need it, you are behind. There is no deck that is 100% fool proof to this because card games are inherently about probability statistics, and there is no 100% chance of anything when you're starting from a 60 card deck.
My personal opinion is that running 8 to 12 ways of seeing 2 different cards that you need to see once per turn is a lot more mathematically probable than saying that you need to see your 1 of 4 rare candy and your 1 of 6 stage 2 and your 1 of 9 energy. My strategy is not fool proof. It's just the risk that I'm willing to take.
EDIT: Last thing I want to say is that we're all leaving out Zoroark GX. If rare candy build chokes the turn 2 candy, I can make turn 2 Zoroark GX and start sweeping your Cosmogs. 4 Evosoda, 4 Ultra Ball, 2 Zoroark GX, 10 ways to see him on turn 2, and the same 3 DCE that everyone else needs for turn 2 New Solgaleo GX. And since Solgaleo is the only attacker in pure Solgaleo lists, you losing a Cosmog hurts way more than me losing a Cosmog.
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First off I love this thread. A lot of intelligent discussion. From what it looks like is you are going for a Sunsteel Strike first and then accelerate afterwards. Now although the new Solgaleo removes the weakness issue, do you still want to go for a Sunsteel Strike first against Volc? Ideally you would want to be lucky enough to just get both on that first chance you have to attack but the speed of Volc seems risky to only have a Sunsteel Strike Solgaleo first. Eager to hear what everyone thinks.
You bring up valid points.
Now that I think about it, Magearna EX does have it's drawbacks. The most common deck that runs Espeon EX is Drampa GX/Garbodor, and Magearna is useless if Garbotoxin is active. With that said, there was a Solgaleo GX deck that went far recently in either a Regional or League Cup that ran one copy of Magearna. I saved the deck list, but can't recall who played it or where it was played.
I can see the benefit of Registeel, for sure. A non-GX Basic that's able to accelerate Energy is important. I would probably remove the Magearna EX from my list and add a Registeel.
I get your reasoning for not minding losing a 2-energy Cosmoem to Guzma, but that's still not a trade-off I'd want to make. Imagine having the Solgaleo GX and third Energy in your hand and losing that Cosmoem. You have plenty of other options for getting Energy in the discard. I'd rather just Rare Candy into the Solgaleo GX and not have to worry.
I think a lot of this is one big "if" scenario. It's good to think about every possible scenario, but it's also good to not get too caught up in it. There's an infinite number of scenarios that can happen. At the end of the day, as long as your can provide valid reasoning for what you choose, there's no wrong answer!
You make a fair point. All Rare Candy decks are reliant on the "ands" as you mention, so what would make this deck any different. My idea of the Rare Candy version of this deck though is that your main goal would be turn two Sol Burst GX (explaining my point about not using Prominence GX).
Your version of the deck (after reading your post) combos well with Zoroark GX just because of Evosoda. As a Greninja Break player (in this format), Evosoda has saved me in a lot of scenarios and it makes sense to play them in this deck. This list seems to be a lot like a Greninja list, set up wise. The only thing your missing is the "water duplicates", if it had it then I'd definitely agree with the Evosoda route. After thinking about what you mentioned, you seem more comfortable playing this version than the Rare Candy, so I suggest you stick with what your familiar with.
On the topic of Rare Candy, the main reason I'd play (at least) a few copies is because it lets you miss that one turn of evolving into Cosmeom. Lets go with what you said about having a least two Cosmeoms in play. Now, what happens if one of them gets K.Oed. You are left with one Cosmeom in play, now evolved into (lets assume) the new Solgaleo GX. You take a K.O on a one prize with Turbo Strike and bench a Cosmog in the process. What happens when your opponent use, lets say, Shinning Jirachi, and devolves your Solgaleo GX. Now your left with two Cosmog and no way to get another Solgaleo GX in play. This is why I'd play Rare Candy. Not just for this specific situation, but for all of those moments where you need a Solgaleo GX and you have an available Cosmog to evolve. In the list you play (though it is more consistent), has no option but to take the two turns to evolve each Cosmog. Any disruption will set you back. Rare Candy at least gives you an option. I'd rather have the chance to get that option then no option at all. This is just my preference though, so if Evosodas are working for you, stick with it.
On the topic of Shining Jirachi, I think I get your point. As @HouchinsDJ mentioned, the only deck that would play Jirachi is Garbodor (besides Zoroark GX/Decidueye GX!), which would shut off abilities like Magearna EX anyways. I just find Jirachi to be the easiest counter to Solgaleo GX, so I expect lists to include a few soon (mainly those with Rainbow/Psychic energy). Just my opinion though.
Now the benefits of your list is mainly Zoroark GX. If something like this happens, it's a Double Colorless Energy away from an even 120 damage. Also the Trade to gain that two extra cards. Not to mention the acceleration provided by the Registeel for an even 30 (60 with Choice Band) and that turn of stalling. The only problem I have with this card is that you play one of them. You seem to rely on them quite a bit at the beginning of the game, so if you prize it, your in for a world of trouble. Plus you keep mentioning that if your opponent goes after a Cosmog/Cosmeom with energy, that fuels the Registeel. So if that is where energy in the discard is coming from, what are you discarding with Trade?
When you mention that every deck needs that one piece to set up and if you miss it your one turn behind, you are absolutely right about every deck having that problem. My point is that you have a lot of those pieces that are needed, not just one. Once again, every deck has that, but this deck as an excessive amount. Energy every turn (play by play scenario), evolution every turn, ways to reset board every turn (Guzma knockouts, Jirachi, etc.), Brigette (almost every deck, I get it), and you need to have at least two Cosmogs on the first turn. If you miss just one, or your opponent sets you back, it's hard to reset more than any other deck (strangely, a lot like Greninja).
Once again, thanks for the explanation and I'm looking forward to seeing how this deck works. Let me know what you think. Thanks!
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Because Volcanion and Fire-type decks in general can start fast with Kiawe, Max Elixir, Volcanion, and/or Turtonator GX, I would focus on getting Shining Mane active as soon as possible, and then worry about powering up a Sunsteel Strike. The ideal scenario for me would be to have a Solgaleo GX with a DCE in the active by Turn 2 with a Rare Candy, while having at least two Metal Energy in the discard to accelerate on my bench. The more I think about it, I'm starting to become more convinced that Max Potion should be included in every Solgaleo list. Once Shining Mane is active, the best your opponent can do is 2HKO your Solgaleo. Technically, Gardevoir GX could OHKO you, but that scenario is extremely unlikely. Having the option to turn your opponent's 2HKOs into 3HKOs completely swings the game in your favor if it wasn't already. Plus, you're typically going to use Max Potion after you use a Sunsteel Strike so you're not losing any energies, and even if you have to Max Potion your "Newgaleo," all you're losing is a DCE, which I would up the count to 4 to compensate for that. I still think the Volcanion match-up is slightly in their favor only because you NEED to get Shining Mane active to stand a chance, while they don't have to rely on evolving anything and have multiple ways to quickly accelerate energy. I do think the new Solgaleo makes the match-up 60/40 in Volcanion's favor, but that is still better than what it currently is.
Are you refering to the Solgaleo GX/Rayquaza build? I'm not sure if it was running any Metagross, but if it was it would justify Magearna EX. I consider it to be an OK tech in lists that utilize Metagross GX since Geotech system and having an attack that doesn't force discard means that it doesn't alter your momentum while providing protection. And when you Max Potion a Metagross GX to discard its energy and Geotech it back, it's at full HP and out of Espeon EX devolve KO range. The system runs a lot more fluidly than Magearna EX in Solgaleo.
As for the Cosmoem/Guzma situation, the point is that I would have multiple Cosmoem on turn 2 because I have 12 ways to see it, so I still have my turn 3 Solgaleo.
Turn 1: Open Nebby, Lele, Brigette for Nebby, Nebby, Zorua. Attach energy to most appropriate position (usually bench to force Guzma, but sometimes active to Dust Gathering if going second.)
Turn 2: 4 Evosoda, 4 Ultra Ball, 4 Cosmoem. 12 odds of seeing them and I need at least 2 to have 0 risk of being slowed down. Odds are, I will see 1 in my current hand and then Sycamore or N for the second one (relaying my experience from playing Salazzle GX/Luranits/Octillery that I mentioned before). Just like Rare Candy build, turn 2 is the turn that decides the success of my deck. If 2 Cosmoem get in play, I am on pace to perform as expected. If not, then the game is in my opponent's control. If 2 Cosmoem are in play, you cannot stop me from a turn 3 Solgaleo GX. Under certain circumstances, it may prove to be more advantageous to go for 1 Cosmoem and 1 Zoroark GX, who may possibly draw me into my 2nd Cosmoem as well as apply pressure.
And from there it looks pretty similar to rare candy build.
Also, I keep neglecting to explain why I'm not a fan of turn 2 Sol Burst GX. I don't like that play for the simple reason that you are drying up your own energy resources. I believe the optimal Sol Burst GX would be 2 more metals onto active SuMo Solgaleo GX who already has 1 metal to activate the GX attack, 1 DCE onto an upcoming New Solgaleo GX, and then 2 more metal onto a wild card Cosmog/Cosmoem which is only 1 energy attach away if you go for another SuMo Solgaleo. Running 9 metal energy and 3 DCE, this means that, at best, you have 4 metal and 2 DCE remaining in deck. On turn 2, you still have a very large deck of around 40 cards, and unlike Metagross decks, you can't operate exclusively out of your discard pile under any circumstances. You NEED to draw energy and attach for the 3rd one for future Sunsteel Strikes, or blow an extra turn on energy acceleration, in which case it would be more like energy decceleration since you're slowing yourself down.
Just from my own statistics, I almost always prize 1 basic energy, so I could be extra picky and say you will have 3 metal and 2 DCE left in deck and you need to see metal ASAP. You have 1 Sunsteel Strike ready to go next turn, and maybe you'll be lucky and get your prized energy from your first KO, then the turn after you Newgaleo to accelerate from discard. If you didn't see any energy, you're putting those on the one that already has 2 energy on it for a 4 energy Sunsteel Strike later. But instead of accelerate with Newgaleo GX on this turn, you would much rather attach the 3rd energy naturally and do back to back Sunsteel Strikes. If you succeed this, you have 2 prizes to go, but both of your SuMo Solgaleo GX are now dried up. Is that okay? It might be okay because Newgaleo GX can clean up.
But how likely are you to draw 1 of your 4 or less remaining metal energy in 2 turns? Are you willing to waste a DCE on Sunsteel Strike if you see it instead to satisfy 2 metal 1 colorless cost? What if you brick on draw supporters? Do you have the 2nd Choice Band you need to OHKO another Solgaleo GX/Decidueye GX too? Are you going to drop a Choice Band on Newgaleo GX instead to 2 hit KO anything bigger than 240 HP? You can't Prominence GX to keep your Newgaleo GX alive in the front lines either since you already GX'd. If it falls, you have 4 prizes to go, 4 or less metal energy in deck, and no access to your discard pile for at least 1 more turn. That SUCKS.
This is the scenario that I imagine in my head and is the main reason why I don't understand why people are so gungho about rushing Sol Burst GX. Please explain to me if I'm missing a certain aspect of the GX attack or if my energy distribution ratios are crap. I know you are not forced to attach all 5 energy cards. If you already have energy in play, you don't need to go for all 5. But I don't even know if it would be worth it to GX attack just for 2 or 3 energy. If you need to buy more time, Prominence GX can buy you more time to see a few energy cards.
There's a lot to respond to so I'm simply just going to keep talking until I feel like I've addressed things everyone has said.
As for getting put behind, my goal in this deck would be to have staggering evolutions. By this I mean there will often be points in the game where I have all 3 lines of evolution in play at the same time - 1 Solgaleo, 1 Cosmoem, and 1 Cosmog. Losing a Cosmoem is always the worst case scenario, and yes I absolutely have no access to late game or mid game instant recovery. This is a problem that realistically can't be ignored, but I would also like to argue that it might not be getting ignored at all.
Zoroark GX is not a win condition for even my deck list, but it's a "don't lose" condition. It's not going to have as much impact as a rare candy SuMo Solgaleo GX coming in for 230 damage or a Newgaleo GX accelerating 2 energy onto a soon to be SuMo Solgaleo GX, but it does have the power to stand alone for solid 2 hit KOs and 1 turn evolution. If you take out my Cosmoem, fine I'll make a Zoroark GX instead and apply pressure that way while I slowly recover my Solgaleo evolution line up. Heck, if I make Zoroark GX turn 2 and start applying pressure on your board, do you have time to worry about KOing my Cosmoems at all, especially if I didn't invest any energy to them? I haven't thought about it that far yet myself. If Zoroark GX gets the first swing in on a Newgaleo GX and I commit a choice band to solidify the 2 hit KO, let's just say that things become very awkward for both players. The big question for my deck is the following: Is Zoroark GX a strong enough recovery to nullify the need for instant rare Newgaleo GX? Both can 2 hit KO one another and both need only DCE to apply pressure. Arguably, getting out a Zoroark GX is far easier than a rare candy Newgaleo GX at any turn in the game, and that advantage alone may or may not be a game deciding factor. This is where playtesting comes in.
Ultimately, the point of running Zoroark GX is that delaying my Solgaleo line up does not guarantee my loss. Manual evolution is enabled by simply introducing a Stage 1 in the deck with enough presence and no energy conflicts, and Zoroark GX is the best solution.
As far as discarding with trade is concerned, I run plenty of 4 ofs that I can make an educated decision to discard. Generally speaking, Pokemon are the next best target since the rescue stretcher can actually search those back out for you. The extra 1/1 Zoroark GX line is also a viable discard target once you already have one in play. Also, in line with what Houchins mentioned about the Cosmoem/Guzma scenario, my goal is to have 2 Cosmoem in play so I'm guaranteed 1 Solgaleo GX, and it'll be that Solgaleo GX with a DCE who accelerates the energy I lost to a KO, not a Registeel. It usually won't be Registeel by virtue of you absolutely have to set up Newgaleo GX.
I feel like I placed too much emphasis on Registeel. It's there because it's just plain good. It's a good alternative method of energy acceleration if you lose a Newgaleo GX you have an immediate recovery option with enough HP to survive some bullying. And if I open it, I get to bully off any starters (like a Cosmog) and get an early start to Registeel/Zoroark GX energy combo. Lastly, it's a free drop for satisfying 120 damage on Zoroark GX. It has many good uses but it's not a win condition. I just feel that its versatility deems it worthy of being a 1 of. I honestly would like 2 in my deck, but as mentioned before it's not a win condition, so I would not sacrifice any win condition cards to play more.
As for the Volcanion match up, while it doesn't stand much of a chance either, Zoroark GX at least isn't a free, effortless OHKO for fire. Ho-Oh's need choice bands, but most builds are running FFB, and Kiawe, and Turtonator needs steam up no matter what to pop you. It's still not optimal, but at the very least I can still have something on turn 2 that will put the heat on fire. That was intended, and you are allowed to facepalm.
I don't feel like I covered everything but I also think I talk too much, so let's call this a post for now.
EDIT: An idea came to mind -1 Evosoda for +1 Wally. Wally allows for turn 2 Solgaleo GX to become a thing, and with Zoroark GX around, I still can get some chummy draw power even if I use him as my supporter for turn. It doesn't have to be early either. I can be in the middle or the late game. In this circumstance in particular, I feel that Wally is better than rare candy. I only need 1 of him, and through Lele + Ultra can see him a lot more often than trying to squeeze in 2 or 3 copies of rare candy to the list. Alternatively, if I prize the turn 1 Brigette, I can still turn 1 Wally to have turn 2 Solgaleo GX via Evosoda.
Worth considering, I think.
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So, after reading what you mentioned on, well everything, I have gathered that this deck needs a lot more energy or energy retrieval (not the card by the way). Based upon what you have said, I agree in that the deck is in a bit of a "drought" state after using Sol Burst GX and Sunsteel Strike. I suggest we change the way the strategy is set to play just a bit. Focus more on accelerating energy with Registeel and the new Solgaleo GX early game, and early-mid game while grabbing at least one THKO (along with Zoroark GX), then rapidly fire away with at least two Sunsteel Strikes. Here is the breakdown of how I think this should happen.
First turn, bench at least two Cosmog and a Zorua and set up a Registeel. As the evolutions begin second turn, focus on attaching energy and setting up more Cosmog. Your main focus now would to be getting the new Solgaleo GX up as quickly as possible to accelerate energy to multiple Cosmog/Cosmeom. This is where the two hit K.O.s come in, with either Zoroark GX, Solgaleo GX, and Registeel. By the fourth or fifth turn, I belive you can get at least two Sunsteel Strikes charged, clearing the way to victory as almost nothing and bring down the 250 HP without weakness.
To restate my point, just accelerate as many energy onto the old Solgaleo GX while grabbing as many K.O.s as you can. Then sweep the board with Sunsteel Strike. I think that is the way the deck should be played, but if I missed something, let me know.
Now you brought up a card that could actually work. Wally gets rid of that need for the Solgaleo GX and Rare Candy in your hand at the same time, and still gets the turn two Solgaleo GX. Two problems I find with the card though are playing only one (which could be changed if needed) and being a supporter. In any other deck, I'd probably not include it just because it is a supporter, but this deck is different. With Zoroark GX and Evosoda, drawing those cards needed after Wally aren't so hard anymore. If your going to play Wally, I'd suggest at least playing two. If there is no room, don't even try to fit in a single copy. It's not worth the bench space (Tapu Lele GX).
On the topic of the Volcanion match up, the new Solgaleo GX's ability is great at preventing OHKOs, but does nothing against chip damage provided by baby Volcanion (early game) to help set up the OHKO later on. The ability sets the odds down to either 50/50 or 60/40 in Volcanion's favor. As @HouschinDJ mentioned, I'd consider adding in a Max Potion in just to preserve that 250 HP a little longer (if you can find room).
Once again, thanks for explaining your reasoning (I finally think I understand what you're suggesting). I think we should be treating this deck more like Greninja or Metagross by just preserving the big HP and hitting hard late game. If you ever start testing, I'd be interested in hearing the results. I hope this helps. Good luck!
I applaud your attempt to build a stage 2 deck without rare candy. However, there is a reason why every stage 2 deck other than Greninja runs rare candy.
To put it simply, it is the most reliable way to cheat a turn of evolving. This has quite a lot of benefits:
1. You are more likely to win the race to set up your first attacker, or at least not fall behind.
2. Rebuilding a new attacker can be faster.
3. It allows you to access your critical abilities faster.
Evosoda doesn't allow for those clutch evolutions from basic to stage 2. While it is good in a deck that can't use rare candy (see Greninja, you can't rare candy from a Frogadier to a Greninja BREAK), it doesn't let you cheat evolution timings.
Wally does let you evolve twice a turn, but it uses up your supporter for the turn. That means you aren't using a draw card supporter. That means you can't Guzma or Acerola.
For all those reasons, I feel your deck will simply lose to experienced players.
To put it simply, it is the most reliable way to cheat a turn of evolving. This has quite a lot of benefits:
1. You are more likely to win the race to set up your first attacker, or at least not fall behind.
2. Rebuilding a new attacker can be faster.
3. It allows you to access your critical abilities faster.
Evosoda doesn't allow for those clutch evolutions from basic to stage 2. While it is good in a deck that can't use rare candy (see Greninja, you can't rare candy from a Frogadier to a Greninja BREAK), it doesn't let you cheat evolution timings.
Wally does let you evolve twice a turn, but it uses up your supporter for the turn. That means you aren't using a draw card supporter. That means you can't Guzma or Acerola.
For all those reasons, I feel your deck will simply lose to experienced players.
I also believe that Newgaleo GX should be the first Solgaleo to hit the board as often as possible. Newgaleo GX is your fuel. It can't die without Garbodor in play or 2 steam ups to a Ho-Oh GX with a choice band or FFB, and it can choose to either accelerate energy or Prominence GX to protect your entire board from poke damage and 2 hit KOs. This is further reinforced by the fact that you really don't need to be ultra mega blasting someone's Alolan Vulpix with Sunsteel Strike - You can get that same KO and accelerate for your opponent's future, bigger threats with Newgaleo GX. Rushing SuMo Solgaleo GX by turn 2 is also pointless since Sunsteel Strike is a 3 energy attack.
This brings the conversation back to one of my old points - is there a point in rushing Newgaleo GX by turn 2 if you don't have energy to accelerate by turn 2? You need a DCE or 2 metals on Solgaleo, and then 2 metals in the discard to be optimal. If you can do this by turn 2 then that's fantastic. If you can't, then you hopefully at least have the DCE or 2 metals on Newgaleo so that you have a 250 HP unkillable force in front of your opponent. Zoroark GX reinforces this strategy because it gets you your discard or at least gets you draw power to be more likely to hit these energy counts more likely than your opponent. If you Trade yourself some more cards and see 2 metals and a Sycamore in your hand, go for it dude.
So let's make a gamble here.
-1 Registeel, -1 Evosoda,
+2 Wally.
Registeel has 1 fatal flaw - You attach 1 energy to gain 1 energy, in other words the turn you play him you don't gain anything besides 30 damage. You need at least 2 turns of attacking for him to actually end up accelerating any energy at all. Rayquaza and Newgaleo GX attach 1 energy to gain 2, so you +1 on energy the turn you use them and from there continue to snowball energy even more. Now when you also consider playability, if you don't open Registeel, you will be forced to attach an energy to retreat the active before you can attach an energy to attack with Registeel, so in other words you're now -1 energy.
As I mentioned before, Newgaleo GX is a win condition for this deck. Registeel is good, but if I'm increasing my odds of seeing turn 2 Newgaleo GX, let's put all the eggs in the basket on that. On top of that, since you run 4 Nebbies, your odds of opening it are practically the highest, and Cosmoems can teleport if you need to reposition without losing energy.
Memory, you aren't wrong about anything you mention. However I want to offer a few counter points.
1. Zoroark GX is a very reliable stage 1 that I can almost guarantee on turn 2 of every game with the current list. Zoroark GX alone has some strong presence with very easy 2 hit KO potential and draw support. This draw support is also the reason why I'm okay with using Wally in specifically this list. The turn that I Wally I am not completely locked out of draw power. An Evosoda based list makes Zoroark GX stupidly consistent - something that a rare candy list would never be able to do. Ultra Balling to discard 2 cards to grab a Zoroark GX is usually one of the worst plays since you're discarding 3 cards in one turn. You might not always want to discard 3 cards in 1 turn to draw 2. Thus, the evosoda gives you more ways of accessing Zoroark GX while mitigating this drawback.
2. Even without the Zoroark GX, this is not a traditional stage 2 deck by any means. As far as the Sun & Moon era is concerned, this is the first time we're seeing a Stage 2 deck split three ways with a 4/2/2-2-1 line up, and that means the consistency of rare candy is lessened a lot more than your standard 4/2/3-1 or 4/2/4 line ups. Take into account the discussion we're having with Newgaleo GX being more important to see early, not even Heavy Ball can help you out with consistency in accessing it. A Heavy Ball build Solgaleo GX deck should be running a widely different list that plays cards like Super Rod to resupply your deck with energy after a turn 2 Sol Burst GX. Seeing rare candy and 1 of the 2 copies of your Newgaleo GX in hand at the same time is a lot harder than a standard Stage 2 deck line up. The difference between 3 and 2 is very big. I've done a lot of testing on the 2 vs 3 ratio in particular for a lot of cards. It's very noticable.
3. Dropping to 2 ofs for a stage 2 evolution means you're going to be relying on ultra ball a lot more. I've never seen a player who doesn't choose Guzma as one of their early game discard targets for Ultra Ball. Or an extra N, or Sycamore. I don't get to use Guzma the same turn I Wally, but since I know that, I would never sequence my play to have Wally and Guzma both be my ideal supporter for the turn. And since I'm not Ultra Balling away my Guzmas as often as other people are, in terms of sheer resource pool, I have more resources. I would be concerned about Acerola if I actually ran any in my list, but since I don't I don't feel a need to talk about it.
Lastly, all I want to say is that I don't like formulaic thinking when it comes to anything. Running rare candy in a stage 2 deck is just simply the obvious thing to do that everyone could figure out in no time at all. I want to offer new information and new ways of thinking, and if they end up being inferior to simply being formulaic, then fine. At least I gained the knowledge and have a point of reference for exactly why a different build that I change to is inherently superior, and we can have good solid discussion back and forth to prove & disprove certain theories for future deck lists.
And suraci, I'll take a look at your list by the end of today.
Great! I agree with pretty much everything that you mentioned. Taking out the Registeel and Evosoda are fine in my opinion as that removes and item and an attacker that is surpassed by the new Solgaleo GX. Again, the way your playing this deck is like a fusion of Metagross and Greninja with the high HP wall and big damage output along with the new evolution strategy. Only thing that I'd push to find room for are Max Potions just because you rid yourself of energy after most attacks and the high HP. If you can't find room, don't worry about it as playing with something your not familiar with is very dangerous. My suggestion on removing cards for Max Potion though would be:
-1 N (after testing with Zoroark GX/Decidueye GX, I hate receiving less than four cards in any deck that relies on Zoroark GX as draw support due to having to discard valuable resources most of the time)
-1 Tapu Lele GX (even though I don't like removing this card, I don't think you're going to have bench space anyways with Zoroark GX, just worry about prizing one of them)
+2 Max Potion (obvious reasons)
Overall, I'd like to see how this version of Solgaleo GX works with the new way of setting up. I hope it works out for you, and that my suggestions may help. Thanks and good luck!
1. You draw 2 cards when you Wally for Zoroark GX. That’s not a lot.
2. Obviously there will br situations where Wally was great, but now you are dedicating 6+ deck slots (4 evosoda 2 Wally) to replace rare candy. Those extra cards aren’t that useful if you have nothing to evolve, or the copy you want to evolve is in your hand already.
3. You actually do want to discard stuff like metal energy so your Solgaleo GX can actually attach them. Ultra ball is a very good way to achieve that.
And you do run multiples of the same supporter in part because you expect to discard some of them.
4. There’s nothing wrong with trying something new. But to assert that this is the superior way to play Solgaleo by giving worst case examples of rare candy and best case examples of Evosoda and Wally, this is cherry picking.
2. Obviously there will br situations where Wally was great, but now you are dedicating 6+ deck slots (4 evosoda 2 Wally) to replace rare candy. Those extra cards aren’t that useful if you have nothing to evolve, or the copy you want to evolve is in your hand already.
3. You actually do want to discard stuff like metal energy so your Solgaleo GX can actually attach them. Ultra ball is a very good way to achieve that.
And you do run multiples of the same supporter in part because you expect to discard some of them.
4. There’s nothing wrong with trying something new. But to assert that this is the superior way to play Solgaleo by giving worst case examples of rare candy and best case examples of Evosoda and Wally, this is cherry picking.
I'm just going to make something clear. Nowhere did I ever say that this build is superior, and many other people have already called out the issues with my build and the reasons why they prefer other builds, and I acknowledge all of the problems they are addressing which is why this deck list is still incomplete.
It's my opinion, and an opinion that you shouldn't be taking personally if you are interpreting this thread as me thinking my build is superior. The only thing I think is superior is not running Magearna EX, and you're welcome to disagree with that whenever you want to.
I threw up a build for discussion because that's what these forums are for. Discussing builds. If it wasn't clear, I am well aware of the weaknesses of this build. If you haven't read through everything in this thread, I'm trying to address some of the universal issues with this deck (3 turn minimum requirement to attack with Sunsteel Strike, odds of actually finding the right evolution out of your 2/2/1 stage 2 line up, having 2 energy in discard by turn 2, and whether or not any of these problems are problems at all), and what trades we are making to target these problems.
I'm not insane enough to think that an untested deck is superior. I want to try a build that no one is going to try, kind of like a month or 2 ago when a majority of people disagreed with Gardevoir GX/Sylveon GX, and people are now even exploring Gardevoir/Necrozma.
Both builds have problems, and that's just a fact. This current list sacrifices speed for potentially excessive consistency, and rare candy sacrifices consistency for speed.
I know that we're never going to agree with one another, and it doesn't seem like you even want to consider this build at all, so let's just leave it at that. I'm actually changing this list in a few days anyway.
I playtested this list (but with 2 registeel and 2 lele).
Noivern GX/Garbodor (which if solg becomes big and gardevoir goes out of favor will be huge)
-Loss, the item lock was killer and I failed to draw into a single sogaleo until halfway through the game
Golisopod Garbodor
-loss, i started lele in the active and they crossing cut gx to knockout and I couldn’t respond with a solgaleo
Gardevoir GX/Ribombee
-Loss, they took an early ko on a lele and I couldn’t get out a solgaleo to respond with
I think the lists fatal flaw is the non use of rare candy
I know you pointed out why it won’t work as well Duo, but that is in a perfect world. In reality, taking three turns to set up a solgaleo is killer and anything playing rare candy/a stage 1 or basic attacker will steamroll you turn 2.
Noivern GX/Garbodor (which if solg becomes big and gardevoir goes out of favor will be huge)
-Loss, the item lock was killer and I failed to draw into a single sogaleo until halfway through the game
Golisopod Garbodor
-loss, i started lele in the active and they crossing cut gx to knockout and I couldn’t respond with a solgaleo
Gardevoir GX/Ribombee
-Loss, they took an early ko on a lele and I couldn’t get out a solgaleo to respond with
I think the lists fatal flaw is the non use of rare candy
I know you pointed out why it won’t work as well Duo, but that is in a perfect world. In reality, taking three turns to set up a solgaleo is killer and anything playing rare candy/a stage 1 or basic attacker will steamroll you turn 2.
Thanks for taking the time to test this.
I was rolling out match ups in my head and I understand that evosoda is slow, though I'm not sure rare candy would help any more against something like Noivern GX/Garbodor if they get the Noivern going first.
Evosoda was a starting point, but this is actually the list I'm looking at now.
Pokemon x19
New Solgaleo GX XL™ x2
SuMo Solgaleo GX x2
Cosmoem x2
Nebby x4
Zoroark GX x2
Zorua x2
Registeel x2
Tapu Lele GX x3
Supporter x14
Sycamore x4
N x4
Guzma x3
Olivia x2
Brigette x1
Item x15
Ultra Ball x4
Rare Candy x4
Choice Band x3
Field Blower x3
Rescue Stretcher x1
Energy x12
Metal Energy x12
Just to make some quick points about the list:
1. Olivia grabs you your GXs 2 at a time. This could be Zoroark GX and a Solgaleo GX if you Brigetted turn 1 and have the appropriate hand to play it down. She can grab you Leles if you brick that hard and then Lele for a supporter to have an out on your next turn. Ultimately, she's here as a searchable card that can search for your 2/2 split line of GXs. I'm not completely convinced that Olivia is the best card here, but that's why I'm testing it.
2. No DCE. Enhanced Hammer, Kartana GX, Noivern GX, Xurkitree GX. There is a ton of special energy hate coming out by the time this deck releases, and running 2 Registeel means I never want to only have DCE in hand opening a Registeel. Solgaleo GX takes at least 2 turns to get set up, which is also just 2 attaches per turn, or attaching onto Registeel, discarding, accelerating and attaching. This is also an experiment. I think no DCE is viable granted you have a natural set up period.
3. No GRI Solgaleo. I just don't think you'd ever want to blow a slot on it. 2 Registeels can cover your Hoopas and Alolan Ninetales. The 170 damage is nice, but even if you Ultra Road it out of the active, you can't attack two turns in a row anyway unless you Guzma, and if the target you want to KO is in the active, then you can't even Guzma for it. I think it's better to just focus on the 2 Solgaleo GXs and not splash in a 3rd kind. It's only a 1 prize attacker, but it's also a whole evolution line lost to making your GXs and forces you to rescue stretcher if it doesn't work out.
This is going to be somewhat of an interesting meta it seems like. If Noivern GX item lock/ability lock is fantastic against this deck, then Gardevoir GX will probably stick around to complete a triangle relationship in the meta. Garbodor decks in general are the bane of this deck's existence. If you can't Ultra Road you kind of can't do anything.
I also think we're going to need more time to figure out optimal sequencing with this deck, and if we're removing the Zoroark GX line completely what we are doing to make this list better, even if that means running an ultra thick line of 4/3/3-3 Cosmog/Cosmoem/Both GX's.
We should be getting closer to an optimal list. I don't think this one is it yet.
EDIT: Original post updated with latest list.
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Right right, thanks for reminding me. I'm not used to have 2 same name GXs yet.
Perhaps this is the right time to consider splashing this Newgaleo GX into other decks as opposed to using it with Solgaleo GX solely for the reason that a 2/2 split is the best you can ever achieve in a pure build.
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