Discussion Night March VS. Vespiquen

Actually, you never did mention you ran it, just opinions on running it. I do think that Giratina is a better counter to Trev than Zoroark. I could see a 1-1 line, but in all honesty; NM runs better by itself, without requiring the support of a Stage 1. But all to their own ;).

Sure, sorry that I didn't clarify. To me, I think I just can't pass using Zoroark GX. As you said, it is just a matter of preference. By the way, my most recent post makes it sound like I don't include Shaymin EX. Just to clear that up, I run both Shaymin EX and Zoroark GX.

Once again, sorry for the confusion and thanks for the explanations (I do agree with the tech of Girantina { for Greninja as well})!
 
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@FrostBiter12 @FlavorfulPineApl

Night March might be my favorite deck on the PTCGO, but then again, I'm not someone who considered its prominence to be a problem even before Karen and Oricorio released. It was "too good" for too much of the card pool to compete but those same hypothetical or actual decks seemed to struggle against everything else that was also competitive, so... yeah, too busy enjoying a deck where Evolving Basics got to not only matter, but be main attackers! ^^'

I am currently trying out Night March with Zoroark-GX. I am one of the people who (eventually) hyped up Zoroark-GX, and I put my money (or at least a bunch of BW: Plasma Freeze packs on the PTCGO) where my mouth is, as I traded for four of them. Unfortunately, as a Free-To-Play player of the PTCGO, I'm spending a lot of time grinding. I also recently purchased Rogue's Legacy (for the PC) on sale (I paid less than $3 USD for it), and I really have enjoyed it. Basically, I sacrificed a lot of PTGO time for it.

So... why do I say all this? To explain why I opened up the PTCGO and realized I had only 2 matches for "Night March Z". ^^' I've won both, but two matches are nothing; I can't be sure if the deck I built is remotely consistent or is just about to hit a huge streak of losses because it ain't right. One of the things I had to accept is that I'm not a good deck builder. Give me a good list and I might make some smart changes to it... but building from scratch and even if it looks good on paper, it won't be anywhere near as good as what you'll see in the top cut.

My Night March list was already unusual, based on one shared by Andrew Wamboldt. At first, I thought he had to be way off, as he went with Dowsing Machine over Computer Search, but at least for this list, it makes sense. Or rather, for the list he posted. Anyway, here is the mess I'm testing out right now, just to facilitate the discussion in general (not to turn this into a deck thread):

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******

##Pokémon - 19

* 1 Shaymin-EX ROS 77
* 1 Tauros-GX SUM 100
* 2 Zorua LTR 89
* 2 Zoroark-GX SLG 53
* 1 Marshadow-GX BUS 80
* 4 Joltik PHF 26
* 4 Lampent PHF 42
* 4 Pumpkaboo PHF 44

##Trainer Cards - 37

* 1 Fighting Fury Belt BKP 99
* 3 Trainers' Mail ROS 92
* 1 Hex Maniac AOR 75
* 1 Focus Sash FFI 91
* 4 Professor Sycamore BKP 107
* 4 Puzzle of Time BKP 109
* 4 Battle Compressor Team Flare Gear PHF 92
* 1 Special Charge STS 105
* 2 Guzma BUS 115
* 2 Float Stone PLF 99
* 1 Teammates PRC 160
* 4 Ultra Ball SUM 135
* 1 N FCO 105
* 2 Dimension Valley PHF 93
* 1 Field Blower GRI 125
* 1 Dowsing Machine PLS 128
* 4 VS Seeker PHF 109

##Energy - 4

* 4 Double Colorless Energy EVO 90

Total Cards - 60

****** Deck List Generated by the Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******
 
@Otaku I see almost nothing wrong with your list. However, I see that you have 2 Guzmas. I would opt to play 1 Guzma and 1 Lysandre. And most people also opt out 1 Professor Sycamore for 1 copy of Teammates. Though you do have 1, but also have 4 Professor Sycamore. I would get rid of one for a 2nd Special Charge, as it is a bad card to prize.
 
@Otaku I see almost nothing wrong with your list. However, I see that you have 2 Guzmas. I would opt to play 1 Guzma and 1 Lysandre. And most people also opt out 1 Professor Sycamore for 1 copy of Teammates. Though you do have 1, but also have 4 Professor Sycamore. I would get rid of one for a 2nd Special Charge, as it is a bad card to prize.

Thank you. I shall consider (and eventually probably test) your suggestions. For the sake of discussion, however, let me explain some of these decisions:

  1. They are part of the original list - Like I said, I took a list presented by Andrew Wamboldt in an article posted elsewhere on August 15, 2017, and ran with it. It served me well, so when I went to add Zoroark-GX, I simply added it to that preexisting list. Possibly, somethings are a certain way based on the original list (which doesn't mean I ought not to change them now). Edit: The original list did not include Zoroark-GX (or any Zorua), nor did it have the two Float Stone. What it did have was two Mew (FCO), two more Shaymin-EX (ROS), for a total of three, one Escape Rope, and one Parallel City. Oh, and if you want to be picky, four Professor Juniper instead of four Professor Sycamore. Not sure why I changed that, to be honest. XP
  2. Float Stone - Are here to help with retreating, which includes if I am forced to Guzma when I actually want to keep my Active. Tying into the first point, the list originally featured Mew (FCO) giving me a pivot Pokémon with a natural free Retreat Cost. Again, I am not saying that makes it the correct decision - running a Lsyandre alongside Guzma sounds like a pretty obvious choice, especially without access to a natural free retreater.
  3. Teammates - Having it Prized is bad, missing a badly needed Professor Sycamore may be worse. Teammates is totally dead first turn, and this deck is running fewer easy OHKO's than your typical Night March. Even with those older lists, I needed more than just two cards often enough. Yet Zoroark-GX should provide added draw, making it easier to use Teammates. Hmm.
  4. Special Charge - It is bad when it ends up Prized but at the same time, I usually only need one per game, and often enough, not even that. Maybe I am just fortunate with my use of Puzzle of Time. It hasn't happened a lot, but I even recall one game where I was playing out my hand to use Shaymin-EX or maybe Professor Sycamore. This included using Special Charge, leaving my discard pile free of Double Colorless Energy... and then I got two Puzzle of Time and would have won if I only would have had a Double Colorless Energy in the discard pile left to reclaim. XD Hardly conclusive, but just giving you an idea of what I've experienced.
  5. Dowsing Machine - You didn't say to change it, but it kind of ties into some of the above; having a spare copy of one of my other Trainer cards is amazing, and a frequent target is a Puzzle of Time piece while I have one already in hand. This enables Dowsing Machine, via combo, to snag any two cards from my discard pile and has been such a lifesaver, I haven't gone back to Computer Search.
 
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Thank you. I shall consider (and eventually probably test) your suggestions. For the sake of discussion, however, let me explain some of these decisions:

  1. They are part of the original list - Like I said, I took a list presented by Andrew Wamboldt in an article posted elsewhere on August 15, 2017, and ran with it. It served me well, so when I went to add Zoroark-GX, I simply added it to that preexisting list. Possibly, somethings are a certain way based on the original list (which doesn't mean I ought not to change them now). Edit: The original list did not include Zoroark-GX (or any Zorua), nor did it have the two Float Stone. What it did have was two Mew (FCO), two more Shaymin-EX (ROS), for a total of three, one Escape Rope, and one Parallel City. Oh, and if you want to be picky, four Professor Juniper instead of four Professor Sycamore. Not sure why I changed that, to be honest. XP
  2. Float Stone - Are here to help with retreating, which includes if I am forced to Guzma when I actually want to keep my Active. Tying into the first point, the list originally featured Mew (FCO) giving me a pivot Pokémon with a natural free Retreat Cost. Again, I am not saying that makes it the correct decision - running a Lsyandre alongside Guzma sounds like a pretty obvious choice, especially without access to a natural free retreater.
  3. Teammates - Having it Prized is bad, missing a badly needed Professor Sycamore may be worse. Teammates is totally dead first turn, and this deck is running fewer easy OHKO's than your typical Night March. Even with those older lists, I needed more than just two cards often enough. Yet Zoroark-GX should provide added draw, making it easier to use Teammates. Hmm.
  4. Special Charge - It is bad when it ends up Prized but at the same time, I usually only need one per game, and often enough, not even that. Maybe I am just fortunate with my use of Puzzle of Time. It hasn't happened a lot, but I even recall one game where I was playing out my hand to use Shaymin-EX or maybe Professor Sycamore. This included using Special Charge, leaving my discard pile free of Double Colorless Energy... and then I got two Puzzle of Time and would have won if I only would have had a Double Colorless Energy in the discard pile left to reclaim. XD Hardly conclusive, but just giving you an idea of what I've experienced.
  5. Dowsing Machine - You didn't say to change it, but it kind of ties into some of the above; having a spare copy of one of my other Trainer cards is amazing, and a frequent target is a Puzzle of Time piece while I have one already in hand. This enables Dowsing Machine, via combo, to snag any two cards from my discard pile and has been such a lifesaver, I haven't gone back to Computer Search.
Yes, I did not mention to change Dowsing Machine to Computer Search as it seems it is the better choice. You get to reuse Battle Compressor, Supporters, Float Stones etc. It helps easily recovering from a Karen as well. And as you said, it "acts" as a Puzzle of Time if you have one in hand.
 
Yes, I did not mention to change Dowsing Machine to Computer Search as it seems it is the better choice. You get to reuse Battle Compressor, Supporters, Float Stones etc. It helps easily recovering from a Karen as well. And as you said, it "acts" as a Puzzle of Time if you have one in hand.

Can you tell I'm not used to people understanding the concept, let alone agreeing? XD Andrew's list - if not his own arguments - made it clear to me, but I've seen an awful lot of competent - if not downright good - players on Youtube and other places still saying Computer Search is the Ace Spec for Night March decks.
 
****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******

##Pokémon - 19

* 1 Shaymin-EX ROS 77
* 1 Tauros-GX SUM 100
* 2 Zorua LTR 89
* 2 Zoroark-GX SLG 53
* 1 Marshadow-GX BUS 80
* 4 Joltik PHF 26
* 4 Lampent PHF 42
* 4 Pumpkaboo PHF 44

##Trainer Cards - 37

* 1 Fighting Fury Belt BKP 99
* 3 Trainers' Mail ROS 92
* 1 Hex Maniac AOR 75
* 1 Focus Sash FFI 91
* 4 Professor Sycamore BKP 107
* 4 Puzzle of Time BKP 109
* 4 Battle Compressor Team Flare Gear PHF 92
* 1 Special Charge STS 105
* 2 Guzma BUS 115
* 2 Float Stone PLF 99
* 1 Teammates PRC 160
* 4 Ultra Ball SUM 135
* 1 N FCO 105
* 2 Dimension Valley PHF 93
* 1 Field Blower GRI 125
* 1 Dowsing Machine PLS 128
* 4 VS Seeker PHF 109

##Energy - 4

* 4 Double Colorless Energy EVO 90

Total Cards - 60
I like the list, especially the quirky techs (Focus Sash, Puzzle of Time, etc.). Unfortunately, I'm not very familiar with this version of Night March as I only played Mew (FCO) before SUM was even released. Based on my recent tests though, I would suggest a few things.

-1 Focus Sash (I get the idea, but as a one of with all of the Field Blowers running around, if your going to attach a tool it should be effective during your turn {Choice Band, Float Stone, etc.}. Understanbly, you include Dowsing Machine and Puzzle of Time to retrieve such things, but do you use Marshadow GX that often? This is just a matter of your playstyle, so it's up to you.)
-1 Teammates (Now, before you think I'm crazy, let me explain. I have played with Mallow instead of Teammates {due to use throughout the game and because of Zoroark GX/Shaymin EX} and it works really well. I would suggest either adding in two Mallow or a one Mallow/one Teammates instead.)
-3 Trainers' Mail (with Zoroark GX, Shaymin EX, and Battle Compressor to thin out your deck, you will definitely be in a tough spot late game with almost everything in the discard {even though that is the point}. I'm just worried that this list is going burn through it's deck to fast and waste your resources late game in case of Karen.)
-1 Tauros GX or Marshodow GX (both of these cards are great with the deck, but with Zoroark GX being another attacker {and 2 prizer} I'd suggest taking out one of these {whichever you use the least}.)
-1 Fighting Fury Belt (not as useful anymore with Field Blowers and I'm adding two Choice Bands for the same reason I suggested removing the Focus Sash. Plus Choice Band helps with getting that extra damage without using all of your Night Marchers.)

+1 Zoroark (not the BKT Zoroark, but the BLW Zoroark that can copy your opponents attacks. This card is way to good to pass on as a one prize attacker that can use Bright Flame {Turtonator GX}, Trashalanche (Garbodor), and various GX attacks with almost no repercussions, all for a DBC)
+1 Zorua (just to have another in the deck in case you prize one, discard it, etc.)
+1 Mallow/Teammates (whichever you prefer)
+1 Special Charge (I hate prizing this card, so the more the merrier.)
+1 Oricorio (I like this card just because it gives you the advantage over other discard decks since you can use Dimension Valley with it for no cost)
+1 Shaymin EX (consistency reasons)
+2 Choice Band (explained above)

On the topic of Dowsing Machine vs. Computer Search, any Night March deck that includes Puzzle of Time should have Dowsing Machine while any deck that doesn't should have Computer Search (as you explained above). I also agree with FlavorfulPineApl about the Lysandre/Guzma split just so you have options.

Overall, not a bad list and I wish you luck. I have posted a deck list on my version of Night March if you are interested. Once again, thanks and I hope my suggestions are useful (and make sense). Thanks!
 
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@FrostBiter12

I will also take your suggestions into consideration, and find them all fairly plausible. Still, I'd like to explain my initial thoughts on them:

  • Focus Sash
  • Fighting Fury Belt
  • Marshadow-GX
  • Tauros-GX
I'd list these separately, but they are so interconnected I end up half explaining one in order to fully explain the rest.

Marshadow-GX
is in the deck because it allows you to dump up to all 12 Night Marchers in your deck but still, use Night March (and hit the new high of 240) plus it allows you to exploit Fighting Weakness. It can also copy any other Basic Pokémon in your deck, which includes Shaymin-EX and Tauros-GX. Surising an opponent by exploiting Fighting Weakness while bouncing Marshadow-GX or making use of the tricks provided by Tauros-GX (explained next) handy and vital, respectively.

Tauros-GX, understandably, is still useful when using its own attacks, at least enough of the time for me to wish to keep it. Even without Fighting Fury Belt, it tends to force your opponent to really commit to attacking (making a follow up OHKO by a Night Marcher potentially devastating), stagger the attacks of his or her Pokémon to avoid Rage/Mad Bull-GX but slow his- or herself down in doing so, or provide a decent fallback option if your opponent does counter the Night March strategy in some manner. Horn Attack doesn't look like much, but 60 for [CC] is just enough to keep pressure on most decks, and sometimes enough to make serious gains - like early in the mirror match against other Night March decks! If you're digging Oricorio, Tauros-GX leaves your opponent little recourse but to flood his or her discard pile.

Fighting Fury Belt can partner with... well... everything but Lampent (PHF) and Zoroark-GX. That might be enough reason to drop it, but here is what it does for all the rest. We are at a weird time when almost every HP amount faces significant differnces. Joltik (PHF) can safely attack something with a Bursting Balloon or is more difficult to exploit by the likes of an opposing Shaymin-EX. Mew (FCO), which I'll mention since it was part of the original list and I still wish I had room for it, Pumpkaboo, and whichver Zorua (LTR) can also survive attacking into a Bursting Balloon but also into "Shell Trap" when Turtonator-GX starts using that. While it won't do Zoroark-GX any good directly, keeping a Zorua-GX alive to Evolve can be pretty important, even if it is just sitting on the Bench, and your own Field Blower can clear it out of the way if need be. Marshadow-GX jumps to the durability of your typical Basic Pokémon-EX/GX while Tauros-GX reaches Stage 1 Pokémon-GX or mid-range Mega Evolution territory. The damage bonus is also nice, and while it won't do much for oddball attackers like Shaymin-EX or a desperate Zorua, Night March, Rage, and Mad Bull-GX should not need more of a boost than that. I mean, if they do, then you discard another Night Marcher for Night March or for the other two, add more HP (which FIghting Fury Belt also does).

Focus Sash is diabolical; it isn't just so you might swing for 240 twice in over two turns with Marshadow-GX, it also sets up for suprise Mad Bull-GX or Sky Return hits.

I'd be running more of all of these if I could but space is limited. So is time, so I'll explain how these work more often than you'd think; most decks aren't able to run more than one or two Field Blower or a total of the various other Tool removing tricks. It is quite hard for your opponent to get them to hand/hold onto them once they are there for very long, which means they aren't as easily countered as it would appear. Guess I'll have to explain the rest later.
 
@FrostBiter12

I will also take your suggestions into consideration, and find them all fairly plausible. Still, I'd like to explain my initial thoughts on them:

  • Focus Sash
  • Fighting Fury Belt
  • Marshadow-GX
  • Tauros-GX
I'd list these separately, but they are so interconnected I end up half explaining one in order to fully explain the rest.

Marshadow-GX
is in the deck because it allows you to dump up to all 12 Night Marchers in your deck but still, use Night March (and hit the new high of 240) plus it allows you to exploit Fighting Weakness. It can also copy any other Basic Pokémon in your deck, which includes Shaymin-EX and Tauros-GX. Surising an opponent by exploiting Fighting Weakness while bouncing Marshadow-GX or making use of the tricks provided by Tauros-GX (explained next) handy and vital, respectively.

Tauros-GX, understandably, is still useful when using its own attacks, at least enough of the time for me to wish to keep it. Even without Fighting Fury Belt, it tends to force your opponent to really commit to attacking (making a follow up OHKO by a Night Marcher potentially devastating), stagger the attacks of his or her Pokémon to avoid Rage/Mad Bull-GX but slow his- or herself down in doing so, or provide a decent fallback option if your opponent does counter the Night March strategy in some manner. Horn Attack doesn't look like much, but 60 for [CC] is just enough to keep pressure on most decks, and sometimes enough to make serious gains - like early in the mirror match against other Night March decks! If you're digging Oricorio, Tauros-GX leaves your opponent little recourse but to flood his or her discard pile.

Fighting Fury Belt can partner with... well... everything but Lampent (PHF) and Zoroark-GX. That might be enough reason to drop it, but here is what it does for all the rest. We are at a weird time when almost every HP amount faces significant differnces. Joltik (PHF) can safely attack something with a Bursting Balloon or is more difficult to exploit by the likes of an opposing Shaymin-EX. Mew (FCO), which I'll mention since it was part of the original list and I still wish I had room for it, Pumpkaboo, and whichver Zorua (LTR) can also survive attacking into a Bursting Balloon but also into "Shell Trap" when Turtonator-GX starts using that. While it won't do Zoroark-GX any good directly, keeping a Zorua-GX alive to Evolve can be pretty important, even if it is just sitting on the Bench, and your own Field Blower can clear it out of the way if need be. Marshadow-GX jumps to the durability of your typical Basic Pokémon-EX/GX while Tauros-GX reaches Stage 1 Pokémon-GX or mid-range Mega Evolution territory. The damage bonus is also nice, and while it won't do much for oddball attackers like Shaymin-EX or a desperate Zorua, Night March, Rage, and Mad Bull-GX should not need more of a boost than that. I mean, if they do, then you discard another Night Marcher for Night March or for the other two, add more HP (which FIghting Fury Belt also does).

Focus Sash is diabolical; it isn't just so you might swing for 240 twice in over two turns with Marshadow-GX, it also sets up for suprise Mad Bull-GX or Sky Return hits.

I'd be running more of all of these if I could but space is limited. So is time, so I'll explain how these work more often than you'd think; most decks aren't able to run more than one or two Field Blower or a total of the various other Tool removing tricks. It is quite hard for your opponent to get them to hand/hold onto them once they are there for very long, which means they aren't as easily countered as it would appear. Guess I'll have to explain the rest later.

Thanks for explaining! I'm not used to the one-of or random cards being played in a deck mainly because I like to stick to Standard. I guess this is how you learn though! After reading what you had said, I'm very hard-pressed to find ways to altar your list, but I will still suggest removing the Trainers' Mail if your looking for room. I'd think the Teammates (and if you ever use Mallow) will be enough to find the exact cards your looking for instead of a chance to find them. Just a thought.

Once again, thanks for explaining and I will surely take into account what you have said when building my own list.

Edit: forgot to mention the fact that you play both the Shaymin EX and Zoroark GX to help draw cards; reasons to take out the Trainers' Mail.
 
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