Discussion Tier List for 2018 Rotation
- Thread starter Adi
- Start date
Here are the updates I am making to the tier list.
Alolan Ninetales moved to tier 2: I personally feel this is a tier 1 deck, but the majority believe it is tier 2. Also people will eventually run counter to baby Alolan Ninetales, so the deck gets hurts a bit because of that. Not to say baby Alolan Ninetales is useless.
Drampa GX/Garbodor moved to tier 2: Too many people have stopped running a bunch of items and replaced them with consistent supporters. Especially because VS Seeker is going out of format.
Volcanion EX moved to tier 1: This deck has been wavering between tier 1 and tier 2, but for now I could see it in tier 1 because it gains Kiawe, Ho Oh GX, and Turtonator GX. This is a for sure tier 1 deck, but only if it has decent matchups against the 3 Water decks in the 2018 format.
Golisopod GX moved to tier 2: Golisopod is fairly hard hitting pokemon with a lot of health. It is easy to setup and can do even more damage by using cards like baby Lurantis. Because it is so easy to setup you can utilize Acerola to bring it up, and put it right back down. Plus if you have another one setup that counts toward First Impression.
Quad Sylveon GX moved to tier 3: This one I also feel is a tier 2, but some people say it is tier 3, and some even suggest taking it off the list. People say it has a lot of auto losses which I don't think is true, but majority rules.
Greninja BREAK moved to tier 3: I think this deck will do well, but the tier 2 has so many fast good decks I'm not sure if Greninja can keep up. It loses Dive Ball so you don't have as much consistency. I'm sorry Greninja lovers, but I'm not sure if the blue frog will be as dominant in the next format as it is in this format.
Tapu Koko GX removed from tier list: This deck is not very good, and won't see very much competitive play.
Alolan Ninetales moved to tier 2: I personally feel this is a tier 1 deck, but the majority believe it is tier 2. Also people will eventually run counter to baby Alolan Ninetales, so the deck gets hurts a bit because of that. Not to say baby Alolan Ninetales is useless.
Drampa GX/Garbodor moved to tier 2: Too many people have stopped running a bunch of items and replaced them with consistent supporters. Especially because VS Seeker is going out of format.
Volcanion EX moved to tier 1: This deck has been wavering between tier 1 and tier 2, but for now I could see it in tier 1 because it gains Kiawe, Ho Oh GX, and Turtonator GX. This is a for sure tier 1 deck, but only if it has decent matchups against the 3 Water decks in the 2018 format.
Golisopod GX moved to tier 2: Golisopod is fairly hard hitting pokemon with a lot of health. It is easy to setup and can do even more damage by using cards like baby Lurantis. Because it is so easy to setup you can utilize Acerola to bring it up, and put it right back down. Plus if you have another one setup that counts toward First Impression.
Quad Sylveon GX moved to tier 3: This one I also feel is a tier 2, but some people say it is tier 3, and some even suggest taking it off the list. People say it has a lot of auto losses which I don't think is true, but majority rules.
Greninja BREAK moved to tier 3: I think this deck will do well, but the tier 2 has so many fast good decks I'm not sure if Greninja can keep up. It loses Dive Ball so you don't have as much consistency. I'm sorry Greninja lovers, but I'm not sure if the blue frog will be as dominant in the next format as it is in this format.
Tapu Koko GX removed from tier list: This deck is not very good, and won't see very much competitive play.
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I disagree I personally run a 2-2 A-Muk line as a Tina counter (with really good success), also, most decks aren't even running Tina, so hypathetically, yes it can kill Greninja, in practice not really, at least not enough to bring it down to Tier 3. It has amazing match-ups, it wins against: Garb Variants, Gardy (more of a 50/50 on this match-up), Metagross, Volcanion, and any other ability based decks (except Decidueye if that somehow lives)
I play it to you van use brooklett hill, Taou fini and i have been testing variants with Alolan Ninetails (non GX) Guzma and Acerola are amazing they help the deck sooooo much.
There are 4 cards Alolan Muk is useful against. It is useful against Giratina Promo, Tapu Lele GX, Manaphy EX, Darkrai GX, Oranguru. These are the only cards which you could justify using this card against. In my opinion you won't even see Giratina promo. Tapu Lele GX is a common card, and a good one, so that is a reason to run it. Manaphy EX is reallly only run in Lapras GX decks, and you also won't see much of that in the new format. Darkrai decks will be seen here and there, so that's kind of a reason. It does counter Volcanion, but that should be an auto win for you anyways because of weakness and Shadow Stitch. My point is you can run it if you want, it is your deck after all, but I feel Greninja with either Talonflame or Starmie are the best versions.
I feel like Greninja BREAK just dropping into Tier 3 because of rotation is a bit pre-emptive.
At the very least it should simply fall into unknown territory until people give it a whirl post rotation and can feel out the deck.
Greninja BREAK when set up has good match ups against everything in Tier 1 right now, especially since all of the top 3 at the moment rely on abilities to output enough damage to OHKO, and Metagross can't even OHKO Greninja BREAK without Kukui or 2 Dhelmise, so the issue comes down to the setting up aspect.
Since the match ups against most of the Tier 1/Tier 2 decks are good or in Greninja BREAK's favor, it boils down to whether or not people can find a way to make it consistent enough.
One of the things I think should be taken into consideration is to drop the 3-4 Talonflame build for 1-2 tech Tapu Koko splashed into Starmie. With N running rampant after rotation, we already know that Alolan Vulpix and Sylveon GX lose some value with their searching attacks. Especially in Greninja BREAK, if your set up is reliant on Aero Blitz, people will N you until they think they're ahead enough. Devoting 3 to 4 cards to your deck space is a lot of dead cards when you can lose to N, regardless of match up. Tapu Koko has free retreat, 20 damage dispersion to work with Giant Water Shuriken if you need to close the HP gap without leaving a BREAK in the front lines, and offers you the ability to remain flexible with your active & bench throughout the game as opposed to all or nothing during set up.
I am personally trying out a Starmie build with 1 Tapu Koko to maximize on free retreat starters. Haven't quite figured out the item/supporter line up yet.
At the very least it should simply fall into unknown territory until people give it a whirl post rotation and can feel out the deck.
Greninja BREAK when set up has good match ups against everything in Tier 1 right now, especially since all of the top 3 at the moment rely on abilities to output enough damage to OHKO, and Metagross can't even OHKO Greninja BREAK without Kukui or 2 Dhelmise, so the issue comes down to the setting up aspect.
Since the match ups against most of the Tier 1/Tier 2 decks are good or in Greninja BREAK's favor, it boils down to whether or not people can find a way to make it consistent enough.
One of the things I think should be taken into consideration is to drop the 3-4 Talonflame build for 1-2 tech Tapu Koko splashed into Starmie. With N running rampant after rotation, we already know that Alolan Vulpix and Sylveon GX lose some value with their searching attacks. Especially in Greninja BREAK, if your set up is reliant on Aero Blitz, people will N you until they think they're ahead enough. Devoting 3 to 4 cards to your deck space is a lot of dead cards when you can lose to N, regardless of match up. Tapu Koko has free retreat, 20 damage dispersion to work with Giant Water Shuriken if you need to close the HP gap without leaving a BREAK in the front lines, and offers you the ability to remain flexible with your active & bench throughout the game as opposed to all or nothing during set up.
I am personally trying out a Starmie build with 1 Tapu Koko to maximize on free retreat starters. Haven't quite figured out the item/supporter line up yet.
First of all everything we are doing on this thread can be called pre-emptive. We are talking about a tier list when the format for it hasn't even come out. Greninja may have some good matchups like Metagross GX and Volcanion, but it has just as many bad matchups like Tapu Bulu, Golisopod. In general I don't know if it is good enough to beat most of the tier 2 decks. Especially if you are playing an out of 3. Greninja BREAK may not be consistent enough to win 2 out of 3 games. Also with Vs Seeker going out of format you will see less N's. This means Alolan Vulpix and Sylveon GX are more effective. I actually run both Metagross GX and Sylveon GX meaning I have playtested extensively with Alolan Vulpix and Sylveon GX in the new format. I found these decks to be way more effective with VS Seeker gone. I'm assuming your comparing post rotation to the time when VS Seeker and Tapu Lele are played.
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We're looking at what will be good knowing what sets we'll have. It's just a matter of figuring out what is hurt the most by the big losses.
After seeing some of worlds, imo we'll see something like this immediately after rotation
t1: Gardevoir, Espeon/Garb/Drampa
t2: Greninja, Volcanion, Metagross, Ninetales, Bulu/Vikavolt, Zoroark/Drampa
t3: Darkrai, Solgaleo/Rayquaza
t4: Lapras, Koko, Rainbow Road
I think the meta will be almost the same as it was PRC-BUS with the exception of FOGP decks dying. Garb might be a little worse but there will always be a major place in the meta for that card because of what it does. We're going to be pretty tired of it by the time it leaves in 2020.
After seeing some of worlds, imo we'll see something like this immediately after rotation
t1: Gardevoir, Espeon/Garb/Drampa
t2: Greninja, Volcanion, Metagross, Ninetales, Bulu/Vikavolt, Zoroark/Drampa
t3: Darkrai, Solgaleo/Rayquaza
t4: Lapras, Koko, Rainbow Road
I think the meta will be almost the same as it was PRC-BUS with the exception of FOGP decks dying. Garb might be a little worse but there will always be a major place in the meta for that card because of what it does. We're going to be pretty tired of it by the time it leaves in 2020.
Greninja is held back by nothing but itself and all the bad stuff that it did to itself just got more likely, not less likely. That's the real issue with the deck. You replace more consistent cards with less consistent cards in a deck that was already inconsistent and what do you get? An inconsistent mess. That alone makes it tier 3 without even considering something like Giratina Promo which sees very little play.
Ultimately, if you get Greninja set up, it is going to crush and crush hard 99% of the games. Unfortunately, you only get it set up 60% of the time and the rest of the time you either stall in the middle, never get going, or WHERE R MAH NRGS!!!! Games are far closer than they should be with that deck.
Ultimately, if you get Greninja set up, it is going to crush and crush hard 99% of the games. Unfortunately, you only get it set up 60% of the time and the rest of the time you either stall in the middle, never get going, or WHERE R MAH NRGS!!!! Games are far closer than they should be with that deck.
After watching worlds here are the changes I will make to the tier list.
Garbodor/Variants moved to tier 1: People thought Garbodor was becoming worse because everyone knew not to play items when versing it, but still we had so many successful Garbodor decks.
Metagross GX moved to tier 2: This deck can roll other decks over if it can get setup, and it counters the meta pretty hard. It also has a decent amount of basically auto losses which include Volcanion, Garbotoxin, and Greninja. If this deck can become very consistent it has a spot in tier 1, but I have yet to see that.
Darkrai EX/GX moved to tier 3: Turbo Darkrai was a really good deck, but with Shaymin going out of format, and Garbodor becoming really good this deck is getting worse.
Garbodor/Variants moved to tier 1: People thought Garbodor was becoming worse because everyone knew not to play items when versing it, but still we had so many successful Garbodor decks.
Metagross GX moved to tier 2: This deck can roll other decks over if it can get setup, and it counters the meta pretty hard. It also has a decent amount of basically auto losses which include Volcanion, Garbotoxin, and Greninja. If this deck can become very consistent it has a spot in tier 1, but I have yet to see that.
Darkrai EX/GX moved to tier 3: Turbo Darkrai was a really good deck, but with Shaymin going out of format, and Garbodor becoming really good this deck is getting worse.
I wouldn't even bother with a Tier 3, because much like Yveltal early last season, Gardy and all Garb variants are Tier 1 simply because they both have decent matchups across the board, so good players will gravitate toward those strategies because they can leverage their skill to improve their win percentages over the entire field.
Tier 2 is made up entirely of pretty much everything else: a bunch of inherently powerful decks that at times have at good matchups with the Tier 1 decks but get absolutely hosed by other decks in Tier 2. For example:
Volcanion beats Golisopod & Metagross but loses hard to Frogs and Lapras. Frogs beats Metagross & Volcanion but loses to Golisopod. Etc, etc.
Decks like Darkrai, Solgaleo, Ninetails, Koko/Necrozma Spread, VikaBulu, even Lurantis and Zygarde - all these are wild cards for me in that, with the right post-rotation build, they could become very powerful. With a slower format, Darkrai has a mid-to-late game inevitability and a low attack cost that could make it very, very scary. Same goes for VikaBulu: it's a grass deck that doesn't necessarily auto lose to Volcanion. Solgaleo slides right into the slot vacated by the loss of Mega Ray. I've honestly never thought Ninetails was that good, but it keeps posting good results and keeps getting played by good players, so what the heck to I know. Some combo of Ninetails with koko Necrozma spread could be very cool.
This upcoming season is gonna be very interesting and could potentially have a LOT of variety eventually, but right now it's just Gardy/Garb and everything else, imo.
Tier 2 is made up entirely of pretty much everything else: a bunch of inherently powerful decks that at times have at good matchups with the Tier 1 decks but get absolutely hosed by other decks in Tier 2. For example:
Volcanion beats Golisopod & Metagross but loses hard to Frogs and Lapras. Frogs beats Metagross & Volcanion but loses to Golisopod. Etc, etc.
Decks like Darkrai, Solgaleo, Ninetails, Koko/Necrozma Spread, VikaBulu, even Lurantis and Zygarde - all these are wild cards for me in that, with the right post-rotation build, they could become very powerful. With a slower format, Darkrai has a mid-to-late game inevitability and a low attack cost that could make it very, very scary. Same goes for VikaBulu: it's a grass deck that doesn't necessarily auto lose to Volcanion. Solgaleo slides right into the slot vacated by the loss of Mega Ray. I've honestly never thought Ninetails was that good, but it keeps posting good results and keeps getting played by good players, so what the heck to I know. Some combo of Ninetails with koko Necrozma spread could be very cool.
This upcoming season is gonna be very interesting and could potentially have a LOT of variety eventually, but right now it's just Gardy/Garb and everything else, imo.
I think you make some good points about different decks. For one having a tier 3 is a good idea because that is the last level where you might see some competitive decks. I can see a deck like Darkrai have a fair amount of success in this format even though it did get slowed down a bit. I personally don't think Solgaleo GX/Rayquaza or Vikavolt GX/Lurantis GX will see much success or play. I never really found those decks which attack and then have to attack again with something else to re supply energies to be very good. It takes to much time, and you are not putting on enough pressure. If you are talking about Alolan Ninetales GX I have always thought it was a good deck. It may not be as good as Gardy but it can have a lot of success against a fair amount of the tier 2 decks. It can even beat Garbodor if you can play conservatively while setting up fast.