Standard Post Rotation Quad Sylveon GX

[Chalupacabra]

I'm very new to this archetype (and PokéBeach) but like the look of this as a 2nd deck to keep around with my Greninja Break deck for the upcoming year. The. builds I've seen that I really like so far have been using Eevie/Sylveon GX only and, since most of the other cards are rotating out anyway, would like to build around those 8. Here's where I'm at so far:

Sylveon Control

Pokémon (8)
4× Eevee (SUM)
4× Sylveon GX (GRI)

Trainers (40)
4× Team Skull Grunt (SUM)
3× Red Card (GEN)
1× Choice Band (GRI)
2× Guzma (BUR)
4× Team Flare Grunt (GEN)
4× Puzzle of Time (BKP)
2× Chaos Tower (BKP)
1× Enhanced Hammer (GRI)
3× N (FAC)
4× Crushing Hammer (SUM)
2× Parallel City (BKT)
1× Field Blower (GRI)
2× Float Stone (BKT)
2× Max Potion (BKP)
2× Delinquent (BKP)
3× Tormenting Spray (BUR)

Energies (12)
10× Fairy Energy (Basic)
2× Double Colorless Energy (SUM)

I'm sure I'm off on a lot of these, as I've not yet played the deck; the hand knowledge from Team Skull Grunt seems key for setting up plays from Red Card and Tormenting Spray. Also leery of Crushing Hammer, as I am of all coin flip cards, but it's a 4-of in every build, so it can't be wrong, can it?

Anyway, please dissect and enlighten!

 

[Alphahitman4]

I'm very new to this archetype (and PokéBeach) but like the look of this as a 2nd deck to keep around with my Greninja Break deck for the upcoming year. The. builds I've seen that I really like so far have been using Eevie/Sylveon GX only and, since most of the other cards are rotating out anyway, would like to build around those 8. Here's where I'm at so far:

Sylveon Control

Pokémon (8)
4× Eevee (SUM)
4× Sylveon GX (GRI)

Trainers (40)
4× Team Skull Grunt (SUM)
3× Red Card (GEN)
1× Choice Band (GRI)
2× Guzma (BUR)
4× Team Flare Grunt (GEN)
4× Puzzle of Time (BKP)
2× Chaos Tower (BKP)
1× Enhanced Hammer (GRI)
3× N (FAC)
4× Crushing Hammer (SUM)
2× Parallel City (BKT)
1× Field Blower (GRI)
2× Float Stone (BKT)
2× Max Potion (BKP)
2× Delinquent (BKP)
3× Tormenting Spray (BUR)

Energies (12)
10× Fairy Energy (Basic)
2× Double Colorless Energy (SUM)

I'm sure I'm off on a lot of these, as I've not yet played the deck; the hand knowledge from Team Skull Grunt seems key for setting up plays from Red Card and Tormenting Spray. Also leery of Crushing Hammer, as I am of all coin flip cards, but it's a 4-of in every build, so it can't be wrong, can it?

Anyway, please dissect and enlighten!

I do not like playing N in this deck, bc your opponent will N enought, along with Wicke for both of you. 1 of choice band is not benefilcal,id play a 2nd Field blower.
I would take out float stones, especially with running Guzma, Id actually add a 3rd. Max potion is huge for syvleon to live so you should play 3# and id also play 1 pokemon center lady.
Plumeria is a helpful card that id play atleast 2 of, and id take out 2 team skull grunt; team skull grunt isnt critical to the hand combo, you mainly play it wen you know they have multiple energy in hand. The goal for hand disruption would be to red card, delinquent and then torment spray the last card , which presumably is a N/Sycamore/Wicke; which leave them top decking.
Fore the core you have most of it in there but just these few things I would consider playing around with and see what works best for your play.

 

[Merovingian]

Ive been working on Sylveon builds since May. I haven't worked with it lately because I'm working in Metagross and a couple other decks. But here is what I would run post rotation:

POKÉMON: 7

• 4 - Eevee
• 3 - Sylveon

TRAINERS: 39

• 4 - Team Flare Grunt
• 4 - Team Rocket's Handiwork
• 4 - Delinquent
• 4 - Guzma
• 2 - Plumeria
• 2 - N
• 2 - Team Skull Grunt

• 4 - Max Potion
• 4 - Chaos Tower
• 4 - Puzzle of Time
• 2 - Enhanced Hammer
• 2 - Field Blower
• 1 - Rotom Dex

ENERGY: 14

• 12 - Fairy Energy
• 2 - DCE

You'll want to run at least 11 fairy energy for better probability of getting one with Eevee on your first turn. Less than 11 is too little, more than 12 cuts into the control cards in the deck. 11 fairy energy gives you an 82% chance of drawing at least 1 in your opening hand of 7 + your first draw. 12 energy ramps it up to 85%, and I feel thats the best number to work with.

I run 3 Sylveon and 1 Rotom Dex. The probability of a Sylveon AND Rotom Dex getting prized is low. Rotom Dex gives you the CHANCE to put Sylveon back in the deck. I have found that in mid-late game, Rotom Dex is fantastic in shuffling some of those control cards in your prizes and putting them back in your deck, which become immediately available by Ribbon. I think a 4th Sylveon is just dead draw and only works from a numbers standpoint. I'd encourage playtesting of both versions and see where it goes.

Id recommend you get at least 2 Enhanced Hammers. The top decks about to emerge are going to be using Double Colorless Energy en masse.

Sylveon is a sub-par attacker. It's damage is average, but youre going to be going against decks that are super beefy (Metagross and Gardevoir) and have ways of healing damage dealt to them. VERY VERY RARELY will you be presented the opportunity to attack in a way that won't impede on your control of in-game tempo. IT's all Ribbon and MAYBE Plea GX. And even Plea is situational, at best.

I'd cut the N down to 2. It's a card thats really only good at the beginning of the game or at the very end. Not often are you presented the opportunity to N an opponent who searched for something because you're usually using your supporters for more pertinent things like energy removal and stranding. IT's great as a late game finisher to deck them out.

I hate Crushing Hammer. Good in Quad Wobbuffet, where you have control trainers for days. Not here.

Ramp up your Delinquent count to 3...maybe 4


I see you're shooting for giving the opponent the nophand combo with Tormenting Spray. Spray is REALLY situational and you're not even guaranteed to even hit a supporter. You might get them once, but they could easily sack a supporter and 2 other cards for Delinquent, and hold onto a Pokemon or energy to avoid Spray beyond the first time it happens.


If you do intend to play this deck in tournaments, I will say this now. It's not good in sanctioned because of time limits. Because of how long it takes for continuous searches and slow/dim opponents. The deck has the unfortunate habit of going into in draw.

If your locals are more lax about time, go for it.

Also, the new meta is NOT KIND to control decks. The next top tier decks are super low on energy requirements to attack. So it's near impossible to keep them held down with Flare Grunts, Plumeria, and such.

Also, Guzma. That KILLS a HUGE part of control decks: stranding

With Lysandre, you can bring up an unpowered Pokemon with a huge retreat cost and buy you some valuable time not being attacked.

With Guzma. EVERYONE will be running it to replace Lysandre. Which means EVERYONE will be running (probably) 3 ways of un-stranding their Pokemon and proceed to beat your head in again.


I'm not saying don't run Sylveon. I'm just saying that, if you do, it's probably going to be a bit rough.

If you have any questions, shoot away

 

[21times]

So first of all, Greninja would be AWESOME in the new meta ... if it weren't for Promo Tina. Promo Tina makes Greninja a dead end.

Sylveon will be good post-rotation. If you want BDIF post-rotation, it's probably going to be Gardy GX, Metagross, or Volcanion, but Sylveon gets a boost with VS seeker rotating out (no getting N'd six times a game) and Hex Maniac leaving (no more turn 1 donks).

I took Sylveon to NAIC and went 4-5. There's nothing wrong with taking it to a tournament, I only went to time once. Here's the link to my decklist and a similar posting on this topic:

http://www.pokebeach.com/forums/threads/my-sylveon-gx-deck.141066/#post-2883755

Completely agree with Mero above that you need 11 energy. I also ran three sycamore. Only one time in twenty matches at NAIC did I fail to get an energy and a sycamore turn 1. With 11 fairy energy, getting a sycamore is as good as getting a Fairy energy.

Also completely agree with Mero that you only need 3 sylveon. And I love the inclusion of Plumeria. Way better than Max Potion. It will probably replace my Fairy Drops.

Mero is also right that 4X Chaos tower is a must. It'll win you games by itself against Espeon.

Also agree with Alpha to remove Skull Grunt. Why discard one or two cards (maybe none) when you can discard three with Deli?

Sycamore was a great add to my deck. I could Ribbon for two good cards and a sycamore, play the two cards and then sycamore and get a handful of other useful cards. It was like being able to ribbon twice.

I took out E Hammer. I was playing it less than 20% of the time. With flare grunt and crushing hammers, you're alright. Plus barely half the decks in the meta run SPE. None of the top eight decks in the last four major tournaments ran E Hammer.

Rotom Dex should only be used in conjunction with Greedy Dice.

Nobody can tell you whether Tormenting Spray will work yet. What I will tell you is that I used the red card, stadium, delinquent tactic A LOT and it works great. Tormenting Spray is just one more card. All I need is one of those three pieces in hand when I go to ribbon and I'll be able to pull off the whole thing. I don't think it's going to be that hard to pull off the tormenting spray fourth step, but I have no idea in reality. All I can tell you is that red card, stadium, delinquent was never a problem and this is only 1 additional piece.

I also always attacked. I never relied solely on hand denial and energy denial. I attacked at least as much as I ribboned, if not more. There were multiple games at NAIC where I got my opponent into top deck mode and just attacked and attacked and attacked. I rarely used Plea GX, but it did win me a match against Darkrai EX at NAIC.

I consistently win mirror matches where the opponent didn't attack. You have to attack with Sylveon, there aren't enough disruption cards in the game to rely on disruption alone. If there were, more mill decks would be having success.

But honestly I'm waiting until September to bring Sylveon back out. I might try some Sylveon Aerodactyl next month, but pure Sylveon itself will be good post-rotation. Probably not great, but good.

 

[21times]

Ah just realized I mixed up Plumeria and Acerola. Acerola will be a four of in this deck, I will not run Plumeria. I will drop the Max Potions as well in favor of Acerola. Not sure if I will run Scoop Ups. So much variability with the coin flip, but you can't play Deli and Acerola in the same turn.

 

[Alphahitman4]

Between the 2 of you, you guys do not play e-hammer, crushing hammer or plumerias, with this deck you definitly have to play energy denial of decent numbers. I think 4 acerola is bit steep with the fact that it uses your supporter for the turn and then you have to resetup sylveon.

 

[21times]

I play 4 crushing and 2 flare grunt. Energy denial is a big part of the deck's strategy, but hand denial is usually more important than energy denial... it just depends on the matchup.

Acerola: assuming you have a Sylveon on the bench, you can Acerola out the one in the active and then recycle that DCE on to the one in the active or put the fairy on the one on the bench and immediately evolve it. Acerola is an AWESOME card for Sylveon. It's like Max potion without discarding the energy. It's just a little tough sometimes getting a second Sylveon out if your opponent is putting heavy early pressure on you. But the meta might slow down a little. I keep hearing people say that the meta's slowing down, but cards like Gardevoir GX and Golisopod GX are turn 1 or 2 attackers, so I'm not 100% sold on the meta slowing down that much.

 

[Alphahitman4]

I play 4 crushing and 2 flare grunt. Energy denial is a big part of the deck's strategy, but hand denial is usually more important than energy denial... it just depends on the matchup.

Acerola: assuming you have a Sylveon on the bench, you can Acerola out the one in the active and then recycle that DCE on to the one in the active or put the fairy on the one on the bench and immediately evolve it. Acerola is an AWESOME card for Sylveon. It's like Max potion without discarding the energy. It's just a little tough sometimes getting a second Sylveon out if your opponent is putting heavy early pressure on you. But the meta might slow down a little. I keep hearing people say that the meta's slowing down, but cards like Gardevoir GX and Golisopod GX are turn 1 or 2 attackers, so I'm not 100% sold on the meta slowing down that much.

I see what you are saying and to each their own specific strategy when playing Syvleon. I feel 4 of the 6 energy denial being coinflip is tall order for doing much energy removal. I agree hand disruption is a priority but with 4 sycamore/4 N and 2-3 tapu leles you have to balance out between the two.

 

[21times]

And it was tough to remove E hammer, but I just did a study where I played twenty games with E hammer and twenty without. I went 14-6 withOUT E hammer and 12-8 with it. I only played it in six matches even though I came across decks with SPE 14 times. And I went 3 and 3 in the matches I actually played it (which means I went 9 and 5 in the other matches). AND I faced more top 8 decks and my opponent had the advantage more often in the matches that I played withOUT E hammer.

It's a strange dichotomy - you'd think E hammer would be a two of in every deck - but NONE of the top 8 decks in the last four major tournaments have run e hammer even though three quarters of those decks ran SPE.

And this may completely change post-rotation. This game is always in a state of flux.

 

[Alphahitman4]

And it was tough to remove E hammer, but I just did a study where I played twenty games with E hammer and twenty without. I went 14-6 withOUT E hammer and 12-8 with it. I only played it in six matches even though I came across decks with SPE 14 times. And I went 3 and 3 in the matches I actually played it (which means I went 9 and 5 in the other matches). AND I faced more top 8 decks and my opponent had the advantage more often in the matches that I played withOUT E hammer.

It's a strange dichotomy - you'd think E hammer would be a two of in every deck - but NONE of the top 8 decks in the last four major tournaments have run e hammer even though three quarters of those decks ran SPE.

And this may completely change post-rotation. This game is always in a state of flux.

I hear ya, thanks for insight on playing and results, but that brings me to why I think plumeria can come in handy, you can pitch cards that aren't releveant to the one matchup but the handful times when e-hammer is useful you can use it. Like you stated before about meta slowing, potentially, i keep hearing more deck playing 4 DCE will be around so specific tweaking will come at begining of Sept but I can see how it could be both beneficial and negative.

 

[21times]

So I see three top decks coming out of BUS (BSH?): Gardy GX, Golisopod GX, and Wobbuffet. None of these will use DCE. Major decks we're losing post-rotation: Vespiquen, Gyarados, and Rayquaza, all of which used DCE. Again, total theorymon, but it feels like we're moving towards a less SPE meta.

 

[Alphahitman4]

So I see three top decks coming out of BUS (BSH?): Gardy GX, Golisopod GX, and Wobbuffet. None of these will use DCE. Major decks we're losing post-rotation: Vespiquen, Gyarados, and Rayquaza, all of which used DCE. Again, total theorymon, but it feels like we're moving towards a less SPE meta.

I agree, its bit up in the air, and if SPE goes to the wayside I will be more than happy to remove e-hammers to make room for playable cards. I am contemplating playing 3 plumeria along with brock's grit, so can discard some energy and monsters and be able to retreive them back into the deck to magical ribbon them as needed.

 

[Merovingian]

So I see three top decks coming out of BUS (BSH?): Gardy GX, Golisopod GX, and Wobbuffet. None of these will use DCE. Major decks we're losing post-rotation: Vespiquen, Gyarados, and Rayquaza, all of which used DCE. Again, total theorymon, but it feels like we're moving towards a less SPE meta.

Serious question:

I actually want to run Quad Wobbuffet (I am assuming that is the deck you are alluding to). I've tried running past the 'new' meta and it doesn't seem viable. Between the increase of low energy/efficient attackers that make it hard to keep their HP and Guzma being run in every deck giving everyone an out from stranding (that and Golisopod being able to kill a Wobb on T1 is pretty scary...and Gardevoir being able to recycle 10 cards.


Do you have any insight that suggests that it is viable? I love control decks and Wobb is up my alley (I even made a post rotation build. Not much you can do, take out all 4 Seekers and Trainers Mail. Add 4 Plumeria, 3 Pokedex, 1 Nest Ball). I hope there is an angle I'm not seeing. At least, I've been running scenarios on paper and I can't make it look good. Any suggestions?

 

[21times]

So let's make sure we're talking about the same Wob. I'm referring to the one from Burning Shadows with the attack Shadowy Knot.

I haven't exactly come up with a decklist yet, but I know that it's probably going to include a 2-2 line of Alolan Dugtrio, 4 Mount Lanakila, Max Elixirs, Puzzles of Time, 4 Wishful batons and 4 Exp share - your opponent can't field blower everything!

If you have one dugtrio and a stadium out, you do 100 damage minimum right there. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that you won't usually be hitting for 200. 250 might be a little bit of a stretch. I just think that somebody's going to make a deck list that will get this to work. I don't know if it'll be great - it kind of feels like Passimian Mew level to me - but I have no doubt that somebody will find a decklist that will win some games with this.

 

[Merovingian]

So let's make sure we're talking about the same Wob. I'm referring to the one from Burning Shadows with the attack Shadowy Knot.

I haven't exactly come up with a decklist yet, but I know that it's probably going to include a 2-2 line of Alolan Dugtrio, 4 Mount Lanakila, Max Elixirs, Puzzles of Time, 4 Wishful batons and 4 Exp share - your opponent can't field blower everything!

If you have one dugtrio and a stadium out, you do 100 damage minimum right there. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that you won't usually be hitting for 200. 250 might be a little bit of a stretch. I just think that somebody's going to make a deck list that will get this to work. I don't know if it'll be great - it kind of feels like Passimian Mew level to me - but I have no doubt that somebody will find a decklist that will win some games with this.

That is an interesting concept. I'll have to give that a look.

Unfortunately, I was thinking of Bide Barricade Wobb

 

[Chalupacabra]

Thanks for all the excellent feedback!

I won't be going to large events with any deck. I work in an LGS, which means working weekends and working while others play (and so they can play). We have a weekly event that occurs after my shift on Saturday, which it's nice to hop in to every now and then. I also want to use these decks to teach new players, especially current and former MtG players, and since both are very straight forward mechanically and thematically, they're great for doing so. I don't want to invest too heavily as opportunities to play aren't incredibly frequent for me. That's why being able to build decks that, despite lacking BDIF status, are still decently competitive AND budget-friendly is a plus.

That and this just looks fun to play.

Going through all the feedback so far, this seems like a decent starting point:


Sylveon Control

Pokémon (7)
4× Eevee (SUM)
3× Sylveon GX (GRI)

Trainers (39)
2× Acerola (BUS)
4× Delinquent (BKP)
4× Guzma (BUS)
2× N (FAC)
2× Plumeria (BUS)
2× Team Flare Grunt (GEN)
2× Team Rocket's Handiwork (FAC)
2× Team Skull Grunt (SUM)

4× Chaos Tower (BKT)
2× Crushing Hammer (GRI)/Enhanced Hammer (GRI)
4× Max Potion (BKP)
4× Puzzle of Time (BKP)
4× Red Card (GEN)
1× Rotom Dex (SUM)

Energies (14)
12× Fairy Energy (Basic)
2× Double Colorless Energy (SUM)

Again, feedback is appreciated!

 

[Alphahitman4]

Thanks for all the excellent feedback!

I won't be going to large events with any deck. I work in an LGS, which means working weekends and working while others play (and so they can play). We have a weekly event that occurs after my shift on Saturday, which it's nice to hop in to every now and then. I also want to use these decks to teach new players, especially current and former MtG players, and since both are very straight forward mechanically and thematically, they're great for doing so. I don't want to invest too heavily as opportunities to play aren't incredibly frequent for me. That's why being able to build decks that, despite lacking BDIF status, are still decently competitive AND budget-friendly is a plus.

That and this just looks fun to play.

Going through all the feedback so far, this seems like a decent starting point:


Sylveon Control

Pokémon (7)
4× Eevee (SUM)
3× Sylveon GX (GRI)

Trainers (39)
2× Acerola (BUS)
4× Delinquent (BKP)
4× Guzma (BUS)
2× N (FAC)
2× Plumeria (BUS)
2× Team Flare Grunt (GEN)
2× Team Rocket's Handiwork (FAC)
2× Team Skull Grunt (SUM)

4× Chaos Tower (BKT)
2× Crushing Hammer (GRI)/Enhanced Hammer (GRI)
4× Max Potion (BKP)
4× Puzzle of Time (BKP)
4× Red Card (GEN)
1× Rotom Dex (SUM)

Energies (14)
12× Fairy Energy (Basic)
2× Double Colorless Energy (SUM)

Again, feedback is appreciated!

Everyone has different strategy and playing style for how sylveon control should go. I mentioned above how I feel good amount of energy denial is important. As a whole there is not much to dispute, one suggestion I have tho is I would replace 1 max potion with a pokemon center lady. If no chaos tower out and your confused/asleep/paralyzed you can use it in critical sitaution while not losing energy. Also I wouldnt play rotom dex, just prefrence, Id play 4th sylveon and if it is dead draw, good fuel for plumeria without adding item count agasnt garbador matchups.
Also I am considering playing 1 espeon EX for its attack to devolve pokeon, can punish players utilzing rare candys now that FOGP will be gone as well with new decks wanting to utilize Ho-oh GX attack.

 

[21times]

So here's what I would do now - when the cards become legal, take your list and go play twenty or twenty five games. Keep track of every card you play - I tracked mine in an excel spreadsheet. If you don't have two monitors, you can just press alt-tab and that will instantly flip you back to the previous screen. This makes it easy to toggle back and forth between PTCGO and the sheet you're using to track what cards you've played. I put the decklist in column A on my spreadsheet and the cards I play in the first game go in column B. The second game is column C and so on. That way you can track and see, "Oh I only played skull grunt in 2 of the 25 matches. Maybe I should cut this in favor of something I play more often."

Espeon EX works best with splash decks - the idea being if you have sixty or eighty damage on multiple stage 1 or 2 GX Pokemon, you can KO multiple Pokemon by devolving them. I don't think this pairs well with Sylveon, but there are a LOT of splash attackers coming out in BUS.

 

[Alphahitman4]

Yea i was mentioning as if the meta seems dependent on rare candy for multiple top tier decks then it would be worth trying but if not then would not throw it in. Another thing I am hearing alot is that people are playing 6-7 energy and then 2-3# DCE in their decks due to lost copst of attack, whor 4 ich can actually play in our favor. You play 3#-4 flare, 3 plumerias, 4 crushing hammers, along with 4 puzzle of times they will be left with no energy, atleast non DCE and make it very challeneging them to make an attack go off. The fact people doubt sylveon playability will only help give us more opportunity to compete.

 

[Chalupacabra]

Yea i was mentioning as if the meta seems dependent on rare candy for multiple top tier decks then it would be worth trying but if not then would not throw it in. Another thing I am hearing alot is that people are playing 6-7 energy and then 2-3# DCE in their decks due to lost copst of attack, whor 4 ich can actually play in our favor. You play 3#-4 flare, 3 plumerias, 4 crushing hammers, along with 4 puzzle of times they will be left with no energy, atleast non DCE and make it very challeneging them to make an attack go off. The fact people doubt sylveon playability will only help give us more opportunity to compete.

Points about energy denial noted, plus just not wanting to lean too heavily on random cards.

Revised:


Sylveon Control

Pokémon (8)
4× Eevee (SUM)
4× Sylveon GX (GRI)

Trainers (39)
2× Acerola (BUS)
4× Delinquent (BKP)
4× Guzma (BUS)
2× N (FAC)
2× Plumeria (BUS)
3× Team Flare Grunt (GEN)
2× Team Skull Grunt (SUM)

4× Chaos Tower (BKT)
3× Crushing Hammer (GRI)
1× Enhanced Hammer (GRI)
4× Max Potion (BKP)
4× Puzzle of Time (BKP)
4× Red Card (GEN)

Energies (13)
11× Fairy Energy (Basic)
2× Double Colorless Energy (SUM)

It's possible that Tormenting Spray is a better use of slots than Team Skull Grunt but, at this point, too much additional theorycrafting without actual play in the future meta probably isn't super useful; still, if you can see any glaring issues, by all means, let me know!