Discussion Return of Greninja?

[Fayld]

Played a Greninja deck last night with my Sylveon deck. I'm sure my opponent was extremely disappointed when I used Lysandre and Plea-GX to put both of his evolved Greninjas back in his hand. I also beat it with Trevenant Garbodor.

Sorry guys, but Greninja isn't back. I wish it were, I loved playing Greninja and it won me a ton of matches back in December and January. Look for him again in September, but until FoGP rotates, the blue frog just isn't going to have the success he used to have. Plus, it's becoming more of the consensus that Volcanion may be played less because it's almost becoming an autoloss to Garbodor.

Trevenant Garbodor is literally its only autoloss and even that is closer than it should be. As for the Sylveon deck, I have consistently had the exact opposite happen and I am a terrible Greninja player. Basically, I very consistently N away everything Sylveon grabbed via Magical Ribbon over and over again. It probably helps that I am playing Red Card in my list as well leaving the Sylveon player as few options as possible as frequently as possible. Basically, I snipe the bench and use shadow stitching until I have cleared the bench of all Eevees (usually there are only 2 max on the bench any given game anyway, so this isn't some impossible task). The question comes down to resources and whether the Sylveon player can keep lucking into theirs while constantly being N'd.

In an interesting twist, you know how everyone expects Garbodor to change how decks are built? In my case, Sylveon has done more to change my approach than Garbodor. I have started adding more and more hand disruption cards to my decks just to make sure Sylveon has as bad a time as possible. I absolutely loathe that deck.

 

[21times]

Yeah I'm 10-3 with Sylveon now (just got them last night) and it's pretty nasty.

But I do believe that any grass deck is an autoloss right now for greninja, and IF Volcanion sees less play, that makes Greninja an even more difficult play.

 

[Fayld]

Yeah I'm 10-3 with Sylveon now (just got them last night) and it's pretty nasty.

But I do believe that any grass deck is an autoloss right now for greninja, and IF Volcanion sees less play, that makes Greninja an even more difficult play.

I think the decks where Greninja is going to play up are decks like Garbodor w/ Tauros, Drampa, or anything but Trevenant. Gyarados decks are becoming popular as well as a general counter to the big basics meta. Greninja does really well against smaller, slower evolution decks and I am seeing more and more of them. It is to the point where I have started playing Greninja in an effort to improve my ability to play the deck and actually bought the physical cards to run it. I never thought I would do that. Ever. It isn't my style of deck and as I have stated, I play it poorly lol. But even I win games against these decks. Even I win games against Sylveon with the deck. That's what makes me think the deck is going to have a presence again. If a player like me who couldn't get my Greninja deck out of a paper sack is winning games with it, there is something there.

Would love it if you would pm me your current Greninja list. I seem to recall it was different.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I'm still of the camp that Greninja is going to wreck every deck after rotation if the rotation isn't deep.

 

[superdan51]

I'm still of the camp that Greninja is going to wreck every deck after rotation if the rotation isn't deep.

Im playing Greninja right now and its still destroying everything. Sylveon is a matchup that I dream of, because 4 count of N and talonflame. The only issue I have right now is drampa and tauros early game. Grass decks are actually a lot easier to beat if you start talon. It can tank shots for you while you do work with wally and frogadier. Greninja is tier 1, but people cant seem to see that right now. Grass isnt on top anymore. Sylveon/Garb are and greninja destroys both of those 8/10 times.

 

[Fayld]

Im playing Greninja right now and its still destroying everything. Sylveon is a matchup that I dream of, because 4 count of N and talonflame. The only issue I have right now is drampa and tauros early game. Grass decks are actually a lot easier to beat if you start talon. It can tank shots for you while you do work with wally and frogadier. Greninja is tier 1, but people cant seem to see that right now. Grass isnt on top anymore. Sylveon/Garb are and greninja destroys both of those 8/10 times.

I hesitate to say anything is on top right now because we haven't had a major tournament where GUR has been legal yet. We will know a lot more about it in 1.5 weeks. Not saying tournament reports are the be all end all for "power" decks, but they do tend to tell you what some of the best players decided to bring to the table. That isn't me saying Sylveon / Garb aren't both going to get huge representation. I think both will. I just think people are sleeping a bit too hard on Deciplume, Gyarados, Volcanion, etc. They aren't "fresh" so they aren't getting as much run on PTCGO. That doesn't mean that when push comes to shove people aren't going to play them in a major tournament.

 

[Dark Espeon]

I haven't lost to it yet when I T1 Hex. Granted, I have been running Turbo Lapras and that deck is built to punish your opponent hard for a slow set up. But regardless, I think that is going to be the optimal play most games if you go first. T1 hit a Hex and hope to get them behind early by putting that first Eevee down T2.

Thats exactly why Quad Sylveon is not the play. The deck is extremely good when tweaked a little more and piloted by someone, who knows the tactical options of the opposing player inside out. You also need to adjust the disruption card selection to the current meta to succeed. Sylveon Gx is a control deck and as such it is terribly unforgiving to user errors.

Still not sure on Greninja. Even with Water Duplicate you are essentially running a stage two deck because you need two Greninja Break out. I fear that once we find out how to balance our count on GX and non-GX attackers Greninja will have issues once more. At the moment Greninja Break benefits a lot from facing almost pure GX decks.

 

[Fayld]

Thats exactly why Quad Sylveon is not the play. The deck is extremely good when tweaked a little more and piloted by someone, who knows the tactical options of the opposing player inside out. You also need to adjust the disruption card selection to the current meta to succeed. Sylveon Gx is a control deck and as such it is terribly unforgiving to user errors.

Still not sure on Greninja. Even with Water Duplicate you are essentially running a stage two deck because you need two Greninja Break out. I fear that once we find out how to balance our count on GX and non-GX attackers Greninja will have issues once more. At the moment Greninja Break benefits a lot from facing almost pure GX decks.

I actually disagree with this quite a bit. Part of what makes Greninja as strong as it is is the fact that the Breaks also punish smaller mons without requiring an attack. With 2 Breaks out (and even with my scrub Greninja play, I almost always manage to get two out on the same board), you OHKO a Garbo / Trevenant without even attacking. You force your opponent to choose what they want up top (which is usually not another garb or trevenant) to take the attack and frequently you have the option of pulling a Deciplume and Lysandre up some fat pokemon that requires help getting brought back out of the active.

Like I said. I am a bad Greninja player, but even with my badness, I pull this off almost every game. The question for me is almost never "can I kill it" with my ninjas. It is "can I get 2 set up by T4 and have I been able to deny my opponent enough energy / good hands long enough that I have time to come back." From what I can tell, that is always the dilemma with Greninja though. Some players are just a whole lot better equipped to make that comeback happen than others. Count me in the "others" camp LOL!

 

[Greninja13]

I actually disagree with this quite a bit. Part of what makes Greninja as strong as it is is the fact that the Breaks also punish smaller mons without requiring an attack. With 2 Breaks out (and even with my scrub Greninja play, I almost always manage to get two out on the same board), you OHKO a Garbo / Trevenant without even attacking. You force your opponent to choose what they want up top (which is usually not another garb or trevenant) to take the attack and frequently you have the option of pulling a Deciplume and Lysandre up some fat pokemon that requires help getting brought back out of the active.

Like I said. I am a bad Greninja player, but even with my badness, I pull this off almost every game. The question for me is almost never "can I kill it" with my ninjas. It is "can I get 2 set up by T4 and have I been able to deny my opponent enough energy / good hands long enough that I have time to come back." From what I can tell, that is always the dilemma with Greninja though. Some players are just a whole lot better equipped to make that comeback happen than others. Count me in the "others" camp LOL!

Well as a, I consider myself, good Greninja player, here's some more info that I feel should be added. Greninja I believe is good because of an awesome Ability and it wins the prize trade. With so many EX/GX decks out there it's basically they take one prize you take two. However that's why Sylveon GX can give you so much trouble, it's not a prize taking damage deck. It's a control deck with the power to stall, disrupt, and do damage. Luckily Greninja also wins against Garbodor and Gyarados, the other one prize powerhouses (They all start with G's, coincidence? I think not.) As for Grass Decks, as soon as Forest rotates out Greninja makes a bigger Splash (pun intended) in Meta Town. I think Greninja is a really complicated deck that's going through Decklist Puberty and still adjusting. Once someone gets the hang of it, hopefully me LOL, then it will definetly start to see more play in the big Meta scene. Until then best of luck, and we shall see who's the true Greninja fans as we keep learning about the current Meta

 

[21times]

Ok first of all I've played FayId and he's not as bad. Greninja player as he thinks he is

Greninja's problem is the same as every other water box deck: it's weak to grass and grass is the best type in the format.

I agree that Greninja does well against Garb. You can build a Greninja deck that runs a minimal number of items.

 

[Fayld]

Ok first of all I've played FayId and he's not as bad. Greninja player as he thinks he is

Greninja's problem is the same as every other water box deck: it's weak to grass and grass is the best type in the format.

I agree that Greninja does well against Garb. You can build a Greninja deck that runs a minimal number of items.

I actually beat a Golispod tool box deck today with it! Lol!

 

[21times]

Well you know what they say about blind squirrels and nuts....

 

[Fayld]

Well you know what they say about blind squirrels and nuts....

Haha! Not really. That deck is built to beat ex and gx decks. As long as you shadow stitch instead of going for the one shot in order to shut off the benched sunny day ability and also take out Lurantis gx, it isn't so bad because they can't one shot your greninjas.

 

[21times]

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while.

Greninja is very, very good. If it were weak to metal it might be BDIF.

 

[Lord Seth]

Played a Greninja deck last night with my Sylveon deck. I'm sure my opponent was extremely disappointed when I used Lysandre and Plea-GX to put both of his evolved Greninjas back in his hand. I also beat it with Trevenant Garbodor.

Personally, I've found Sylveon GX to be an astoundingly good matchup for Greninja BREAK. I've never lost that matchup while playing Greninja.