Discussion The end of Volcanion?

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Hey Beach Bums,

So I recently was watching a Youtuber who was proclaiming that Volcanion was "dead." My initial reaction was that he was wrong, there's no way Volcanion could have fallen from top tier status, but the more I got to thinking about it, the more he may be correct. Since GRI, I am 20-14 with various Volcanion decks, but I lost all 3 matches I played with it the other night, 1 to Trev Vileplume, 1 to Sylveon GX, and 1 to Garb GRI.

Just wanted to get your input: are your Volcanion decks struggling as well? Since GRI, there has been a delicate balance between water, grass, and fire. If Volcanion becomes unplayable, that means that water decks will see a lot less play as well and grass will become all the more dominant.
 
Hi, I onestly don't think volcanion is dead or near to.

Regarding sylveon gx I find it a bad match up in any case (have you tried the turtonator gx tech?),
Also volcanion if structured well can be played even if you have to use less items. I mean if you can put down a scorched earth and have some of those annoying shaymin or hoopa ex, the game is pretty setted.

Also for the near future I have just one word: Kiawe!
 
Good decks never truly 'die', they just get sidelined for a time. People gradually forget they exist, stop teching against them then they come back when what was checking them rotates, falls out of meta favor or they get a response to it. Greninja, which was 'dead' in the PRC-SUM era mostly died because there was a better water deck that didn't get shut down by garbotoxin without tool removal, and grass got a big boost with Decidueye/Lurantis. Now FOGP item lock will be punished for burning through half of their decks on turn 1. Unfortunately that means Volc will have less things to burn. I don't think Sylveon is especially bad since Volc naturally runs a lot of energy recovery. Trev is less of a good match up than Decidueye but should be volc favored unless they get the t1 lock. Garbodor is the worst match up of those since garbotoxin, even though it has a counter with field blower, really messes up your ability to flow with this deck, and garb usually runs enough tools to outlast your field blowers.

Guardians will be rougher for Volc than Sun/moon was, but as was said Kiawe is one of the nastiest fire support cards we've ever gotten and Volcanion/EX will remain a component of any basic oriented fire deck until it rotates.
 
Thanks for the replies guys. I love Turtonator, with a couple of steam ups, it can be NASTY.

And yes Kiawe is a very interesting card in that it will be legal for worlds but for nothing before that. It could very well be this year's Talonflame.

Grass is so big right now, it seems to me that Volcanion will have a place in the meta as long as FoGP is around.
 
Maybe I am the idiot here, but I don't think Kiawe has any place in a Volcanion deck. You don't really have any cards that need the 4 energy attachments outside of maybe setting up a Turtonator, but if you are setting up a Turtonator that way, you are probably running a Turtonator deck with a couple of Volcanion EXs specifically for Steam Up. I think that's a different deck than the current Volcanion with Turtonator as a tech. I think Turtonator becomes the feature in that deck and you probably aren't running Hoopa at all.

As for the death of Volcanion, the reason I think it is in trouble has less to do with the decks you mentioned and more to do with the fact that I think Gyarados is going to get a lot of run in the near future and Volcanion has a horrific match up against Gyarados.
 
Hmmm yes with Kiawe it's only to one Pokemon. Works great for M Charizard, M Blaziken, Flareon etc. but probably not the typical Volcanion EX, baby Volcanion build.
 
I think that Kiawe has no place in Volcanion deck, but Volcanion has a place in basic attacker Kiawe decks.

Also I think that Gyarados is going to suffer a lot from promo Koko. It's true that the Spinda tech has always existed, but Koko does double the damage and has a 0 retreat which is always a nice feature for a tech poke, he basically drops a Kukui on your opponent's field if you spend a turn attacking with him which makes the numbers game slightly easier for a lot of decks, and as a one prize card it's an option for any GX/EX decks that run DCE as well.

I think tons of people are going to run that card even if they don't *need* it for Gyarados, having the auto-win button against that deck is just icing on the cake, unlike say Oricorio which isn't going to be useful at all if they're not running Vespiquen.
 
Fayld said:
Maybe I am the idiot here, but I don't think Kiawe has any place in a Volcanion deck. You don't really have any cards that need the 4 energy attachments outside of maybe setting up a Turtonator, but if you are setting up a Turtonator that way, you are probably running a Turtonator deck with a couple of Volcanion EXs specifically for Steam Up. I think that's a different deck than the current Volcanion with Turtonator as a tech. I think Turtonator becomes the feature in that deck and you probably aren't running Hoopa at all.

As for the death of Volcanion, the reason I think it is in trouble has less to do with the decks you mentioned and more to do with the fact that I think Gyarados is going to get a lot of run in the near future and Volcanion has a horrific match up against Gyarados.
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You are absolutely right, I was talking for fire type in general, my mistake! :)
 
The players need a certain mindset when playing against Garb/Trev. You need to figure out your threat and take those out but the match up is still hard. Sylveon-GX is a bad match for every deck. Either it draws well or it doesn't but I don't see how it's that bad a match but I don't play the deck so... Garb is just conserving resources and while you play much slower, you should be able to outlast them.

I don't think Volcanion-EX is going anywhere but I've always considered it a volatile deck since you need to have the right options every turn. I wonder if you're using Mallow though since it makes a difference in the deck.
 
Kietharr said:
I think that Kiawe has no place in Volcanion deck, but Volcanion has a place in basic attacker Kiawe decks.

Also I think that Gyarados is going to suffer a lot from promo Koko. It's true that the Spinda tech has always existed, but Koko does double the damage and has a 0 retreat which is always a nice feature for a tech poke, he basically drops a Kukui on your opponent's field if you spend a turn attacking with him which makes the numbers game slightly easier for a lot of decks, and as a one prize card it's an option for any GX/EX decks that run DCE as well.

I think tons of people are going to run that card even if they don't *need* it for Gyarados, having the auto-win button against that deck is just icing on the cake, unlike say Oricorio which isn't going to be useful at all if they're not running Vespiquen.
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The lists I have seen are all stacking Mr. Mime to stop promo Koko. Definitely need to bring the Hex Maniac to the party to combo with Koko LOL!
 
Yeah, but basically every deck that doesn't depend on using an ability every turn is (or should be) running that card and Lele has more or less doubled the number of cards in your deck that can potentially lead to getting Hex maniac out exactly when you need it. So it's not an auto win, but it's part of a pretty consistent win condition that takes minimal deck investment to achieve if you're already running DCE.

Just saying, I see a ton of hype around Gyarados but the deck still has both the basically unwinnable match up that made up about a quarter of placements in the late PRC-SUM era as well as some hot new nastiness coming his way to overcome.
 
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