Blog No More Night March! Celebrating the New Standard Format and Some Theorymon

PineDog

Random TCG Trainer
Member
I know you mentioned it, but I think Garbodor and Stage 1 Friends (Raichu, Zebstrika, Zoroark) could be the new anti-meta deck, Raichu's a solid attacker, Zebstrika is a hard counter to M Ray and Yveltal, Zoroark sucks up damage and counters M Mewtwo Y, while Garbodor screws over the meta. And since this deck can be more reckless with it's special energy, since it can just Special Charge them back into your deck, and counter the counter in Jirachi with a Pokemon Ranger. Maybe a tier 2 or 3 deck.
 

Serperior

~
Advanced Member
Member
@Lanstar: Thanks! I appreciate the feedback! M Mewtwo-EX X might be strong as well, but I don't think it's as good as the Y version because of only hitting for 200. Those big Basics with FFB or the Megas are gonna survive those hits, giving the opponent another turn to adjust to the situation. Damage Change is going to be a niche in Mewtwo decks for sure if the opponent can't find a way to OHKO em. I don't think the Volcarona is splashable enough for an attack that requires three Energy to be meta-competitive, however.

@Spectre_Makoto: I regret leaving both Mewtwo out, but thankfully PMJ wrote about the Y version. I believe the Y version is more formidable than the X, but don't think it stood out to me to be worth mentioning. I dunno if @BraviaryBoi is right when he says that Mewtwo beats Greninja. Damage Change is the key player in this matchup more than anything because you're going to need to stack a ton of Energy to KO with Psychic Infinity, especially when Greninja bounces its one Energy it needs to attach back to the hand. To try and take down a 170-HP BREAK in one hit isn't easy. They also have access to Rough Seas and don't play any EXs for you to try and even up the Prize trade on.

@WastedSkyPirate: My man! True - we don't have the complete setlist yet, but from what we can deduce from the Japanese scans and mocklists that have been written up so far, (the big announcement being Karen not included within the set), we have the best idea possible. Treynor Wolfe (another writer here) has what should be the list somewhere. Yeah, Groudon's gonna be really good. Dunno if playing M Scep is gonna help at all but I'm thinking about it hard.

@MarshalBry: I did not think about Max Potion. However, I don't know how worth it it would be. You would need to hit two Diamond Gifts to replenish Groudon's Energy cost, and in that time Carbink could get KO'd. This isn't stopping you from bringing up another one, however, and softening your opponent's Active so one Gaia Volcano could do the trick. Interesting idea for sure.

@Otaku: Now you're speaking my language haha. Sorry for the misunderstanding! On Korrina and Sash - I get that they weren't four-ofs in Fighting, but they were still very significant in making the deck as consistent as possible. Variants with Medicham could attack four times before they were Knocked Out (with the Ancient Trait) which even makes the card viable for Worlds. Korrina ensures you have attackers and a gameplan for the next turn. I don't think I need to run back what the cards do. I would say that with heavier hitting Pokémon in the meta that would usually have good matchups against Fighting would call for the wish of having Sash around. Sure, Ariados does render it useless, no lie, but you're gonna use Ariados pretty much only in M Scep or in another Grass-type attacker. And frankly, there really isn't another right now. Sash would be for lower-HP Fighting-types or heck even anything afraid of Ray.

@PineDog: Yup. The thing is, M Ray makes those counters more viable than they would be without it in the format. What other reason would there be to play something like Zebstrika?
 

MarshalBry

Aspiring Trainer
Member
@MarshalBry: I did not think about Max Potion. However, I don't know how worth it it would be. You would need to hit two Diamond Gifts to replenish Groudon's Energy cost, and in that time Carbink could get KO'd. This isn't stopping you from bringing up another one, however, and softening your opponent's Active so one Gaia Volcano could do the trick. Interesting idea for sure.

I mentioned in my post if you attach the turn you retreat from the Groudon back to the Groudon, you only need 1 Diamond Gift assuming you can attach the next turn too.
 

WastedSkyPirate

...
Member
I mentioned in my post if you attach the turn you retreat from the Groudon back to the Groudon, you only need 1 Diamond Gift assuming you can attach the next turn too.

That's assuming that you've already attached to Carbink BREAK at some earlier point in the game. However, Groudon decks could be quicker if they wanted to be; Mega Turbo and Clawitzer (Steam Siege) are other options to consider for energy acceleration for example. The latter would be a completely different build of Groudon, however, as it doesn't have any synergy with Wobbuffet in the stalling version of the deck.

On the other hand, thanks to Scorched Earth, Groudon decks don't have any problem getting Fighting Energy in the discard pile for Mega Turbo/Diamond Gift.

I'm super pumped to build this deck for PRC-On.
 
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chella182

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Reading this kind of makes me wish I hadn't given up all of my competitive cards. I absolutely loved playing Speed Ray but struggled with it in the meta around me (M Manectric and item lock were huge here). I also always liked the idea of M Sceptile, and I'd consider building it in the new format if I got back into it. All I'd need to buy would be a 1-1 line of each Ray and Sceptile, I have all of the trainer cards I think... Something to consider.

I'm most pleased about seeing the back of item lock I think. While I did play Toad Bats for a while, I think it did make the format a little stale and annoying. Night March didn't seem as popular around me, so I guess I never built up a true hatred for it. But it seems it's also a good thing that it's going along with item lock.

A great article, thanks :)
 

poke4trade

Raising Ash
Member
I think Ray is good. I play the deck a lot. I think the biggest hurdle is Garitinia. Garitinia puts pressure on the Megas.

I think it puts so much pressure on the megas, that without the perfect draw it is a auto loss.

I play speed Garitinia, without darkrai, the dragon version. I win the matchup in the new format by playing one Parallel city and Chaos Wheeling on my first or second turn. I win it frequently. Because of these simple tactics, it will draw decks out like Zygarde EX. I think decks that will be reliant on sky field are in for a bit of surprise in the next format. With Max Elixier and Resheriam, the four energy charge for chaos wheel is pretty simple to achieve. With Darkria, the darkness attack is easy to achieve too. Pokemon Ranger is a bit complicated to get into play, along with Hex Maniac. It will be a up.
 

Otaku

The wise fool?
Member
@Otaku: Now you're speaking my language haha. Sorry for the misunderstanding! On Korrina and Sash - I get that they weren't four-ofs in Fighting, but they were still very significant in making the deck as consistent as possible. Variants with Medicham could attack four times before they were Knocked Out (with the Ancient Trait) which even makes the card viable for Worlds. Korrina ensures you have attackers and a gameplan for the next turn. I don't think I need to run back what the cards do. I would say that with heavier hitting Pokémon in the meta that would usually have good matchups against Fighting would call for the wish of having Sash around. Sure, Ariados does render it useless, no lie, but you're gonna use Ariados pretty much only in M Scep or in another Grass-type attacker. And frankly, there really isn't another right now. Sash would be for lower-HP Fighting-types or heck even anything afraid of Ray.

Just so we are clear. ;)

Let me know if you want further discussion on this or not; don't wanna monopolize the thread for your own article. ^^' I can live with disagreeing on the exact state of Fighting Types; we'll know whether I got it right or wrong soon enough. A lot of this ends up being hypothetical after all ("If Focus Sash weren't rotating...") which gets pretty subjective anyway, and can be problematic in group discussions.
 

Draaka

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I play speed Garitinia, without darkrai, the dragon version. I win the matchup in the new format by playing one Parallel city and Chaos Wheeling on my first or second turn. I win it frequently. Because of these simple tactics, it will draw decks out like Zygarde EX. I think decks that will be reliant on sky field are in for a bit of surprise in the next format. With Max Elixier and Resheriam, the four energy charge for chaos wheel is pretty simple to achieve. With Darkria, the darkness attack is easy to achieve too. Pokemon Ranger is a bit complicated to get into play, along with Hex Maniac. It will be a up.

Can you post or PM me a decklist? I've not found a great way to power up tina turn one very well yet.
 

BraviaryBoi

Anonymus
Member
@Serperior
M Mewtwo beats Greninja. You take easy KOs while they are trying to set up and then load energy onto a big Mewtwo to one-shot their Greninjas/Greninja BREAKS.
 

Serperior

~
Advanced Member
Member
Very nice points on Primal Groudon - there's plenty of room for acceleration even without Battle Compressor that Groudon can use for getting Fighting Energy in the discard. We can bet that Ultra Ball will get rid of our Strong to help there. @MarshalBry it has four-Energy Retreat Cost...idk it might be a bit much. I agree with @WastedSkyPirate on Clawitzer. Not having Safeguard is the biggest blow here, and Clawitzer can get run over before it even gets set up.

@chella182 It's better late than never! :D Thank you for the commentary. I'm glad my article could help.

@poke4trade Yeah. SpeedTina I think will see some viability. One Hex can really take a toll on the deck, however, meaning Ray can run through Tina and keep you from using Reshi's Abilities the next turn. It's weird.

@Otaku Oh yeah it can. We could go about this all day. What were your thoughts on Fighting like now? Were you arguing that it doesn't take that big of a hit or...maybe I'm just missing something lol.

@BraviaryBoi I mean, how many Energy do you need to stack on one Mewtwo to take that KO, though, like...six? That's a lot. And if it gets KO'd...how are you gonna bounce back from that? Granted, I don't expect much Greninja in the first place, but it's something to think about. You could Damage Change anything you take if you're at full health, because without Muscle Band I'm not sure Greninja can hit 210.
 

Otaku

The wise fool?
Member
@Otaku Oh yeah it can. We could go about this all day. What were your thoughts on Fighting like now? Were you arguing that it doesn't take that big of a hit or...maybe I'm just missing something lol.

That actually could be a significant part of things. I often hold up the Fighting Type as being the best supported Type... but currently that isn't helping a lot of Fighting decks win tournaments. Not sure if I am using the classification properly, but I'm thinking they are Tier 3 or 4 right now. Fighting decks can be beasts to deal with when you're not prepared... but the current top decks are all naturally prepared. Do any of the current top decks have an unfavorable match up? Not being rhetorical; not only am I answering this a few hours after I ought to have turned in, but there are decks like Bronzong/Genesect-EX which I am having a hard time classifying still.
 

Serperior

~
Advanced Member
Member
In this very moment, I think that Medicham/Carbink BREAK/Focus Sash might be a strong play for Worlds. Medicham can potentially take multiple KOs against NM and Carbink helps set up against EX decks while you take no damage.

Metal as a whole is gonna see a nerf in the future but honestly I don't think it's top tier anymore. Night March is too explosive and Metal doesn't have many good matchups.
 

BraviaryBoi

Anonymus
Member
In this very moment, I think that Medicham/Carbink BREAK/Focus Sash might be a strong play for Worlds. Medicham can potentially take multiple KOs against NM and Carbink helps set up against EX decks while you take no damage.

Medicham loses to Trevenant and beats Night March a good percent of the time. But the hard loss to Trevenant is what cut it out of my testing. But if Trevenant isn't as played then I agree with this statement wholeheartedly.
 

Serperior

~
Advanced Member
Member
I won't lie there. Each deck this format has at least one hard loss. It's all about which battles you pick you know?
 

WastedSkyPirate

...
Member
I won't lie there. Each deck this format has at least one hard loss. It's all about which battles you pick you know?

Is the 'one hard loss' Battle Compressor for every deck? ;)

Honestly though, I am very sad about Metal and Fire in particular. They've been fairly fringe decks, dipping in and out of top tier over the last year or so (e.g. Entei/Charizard and Genesect/Bronzong), but I feel they've been hit hard by their losses - in particular Bronzong and Blacksmith. It's unfortunate because they're both receiving a bit of attention in Steam Siege (lots of new viable Metal and Fire Pokemon).

I wonder if Volcanion-EX will make a showing at Worlds (this being the only chance to use Volcanion-EX & friends + Blacksmith in the Standard Format)?
 

MarshalBry

Aspiring Trainer
Member
In all honesty I think baby Volcanion will replace Blacksmith. It's clear they want a slower format, and Volcanion is an essence a more efficient baby Yveltal (which is used in most Dark decks). I don't think the 10 less damage is a big deal when it accelerates twice the energy (though with the loss of Muscle Band its much harder to apply pressure with it).

Volcanion – Fire – HP130
Basic Pokemon

[R] Power Heater: 20 damage. Choose 2 of your Benched Pokemon. Attach a Fire Energy from your discard pile to each of them.

[R][R][R] Explosive Flame: 100 damage.

Weakness: Water (x2)
Resistance: none
Retreat: 2
 

WastedSkyPirate

...
Member
In all honesty I think baby Volcanion will replace Blacksmith. It's clear they want a slower format, and Volcanion is an essence a more efficient baby Yveltal (which is used in most Dark decks). I don't think the 10 less damage is a big deal when it accelerates twice the energy (though with the loss of Muscle Band its much harder to apply pressure with it).

That's an interesting idea, however I have to disagree that it will replace Blacksmith, at least not with the same effectiveness.

A Trainer card that attaches 2 Energy cards from the discard pile to your Pokemon will always be stronger than an attack with a similar effect. The reason for this is fairly clear; you can accelerate Energy to your preferred attacker and, potentially, use their attack within the same turn. That said, I agree that Baby Volcanion seems like the most viable card for Energy acceleration in Fire decks post rotation.
 

MarshalBry

Aspiring Trainer
Member
That's an interesting idea, however I have to disagree that it will replace Blacksmith, at least not with the same effectiveness.

A Trainer card that attaches 2 Energy cards from the discard pile to your Pokemon will always be stronger than an attack with a similar effect. The reason for this is fairly clear; you can accelerate Energy to your preferred attacker and, potentially, use their attack within the same turn. That said, I agree that Baby Volcanion seems like the most viable card for Energy acceleration in Fire decks post rotation.

I mean in 16-17 Expanded there's no reason not to run Blacksmith over Volcanion, but as there is no Blacksmith in 16-17 Standard Volcanion will replace it.
 

Serperior

~
Advanced Member
Member
Right, there's no way Volcanion will replace Blacksmith but boy will it be a staple. Volcanion/EX/Scorched Earth could very well be the Fire-type engine it's looking for.

Primal Groudon hype man! Get em cheap(er) while you can. It's gonna be a strong play!
 
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