Wrong again. Most decks WILL struggle to KO it, due to the ridiculous early game pressure of 210, sometimes on a Pokemon of your choice. As the game goes on, the 40 HP becomes more irrelevant, sure, but if the game goes past T4, NM probably already lost.
Discussion Disappointed with Fighting Fury Belt
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This is sorta only true for decks without Pokemon with low energy cost, to be honest, as low energy cost Pokemon should be able to get up and running still.
You're missing the point. It works in NM since now you don't have to Hex every turn to avoid Bats. Now, you can devote a Supporter to Sycamore or something else rather than Hex almost every turn.
If by most decks, you mean every deck save YZG, Giratina, M Manectric, Entei, Blastoise, Vespiquen, M Rayquaza, Primal Groudon, M Mewtwo, Sableye / Garbodor (doesn't care about extra HP anyways), and the mirror, and maybe even a few more that I'm forgetting, then yeah sure. "Most decks". The extra 40 HP doesn't make a difference in any of these matchups. It's still a good or bad match up either way. The decks that struggle to KO a 100 HP Pumpkaboo T1 pretty much all struggle to KO a 60 HP Pumpkaboo T1.
I think the problem lies more in the prize trading here. You CAN knock it out, but usually you're using a 2 prize Pokemon to do it. Luckily this won't even be an issue thanks to Jolteon-ex coming soon!
Right and that makes sense, but that has always been the problem even before the extra 40 HP from Fighting Fury Belt.
Very true. I play a lot of mega Ray, and our best way of dealing with this has been sky returning joltiks to death. I'm sad we lost that ability now.
I'm only discussing Standard (Expanded doesn't exist in my country, so I don't have a clue about what's going on there). In which case, the extra 40 HP makes A WORLD of difference in the GYZ, M Manectric and Entei matchups. GYZ is the easiest example, since now Yveltal XY can't OHKO your attackers, which is a pretty big thing. As for M Manectric EX, the advantage comes from not getting KOed from double Overrun (they should never get the chance to Mega Evolve without you being able to KO it), and Entei no longer OHKOs Pumpkaboo with Flame Screen + MB + FFB.
Between MB and FFB, the point is that FFB is much better, since the extra 10 makes no difference, but the extra 40 HP does plenty to help out.
It has (almost) nothing to do with prize trading. Night March has always been good for having a favorable prize trade. My point is that now, most decks struggle to KO it T1 with 100 HP, due to the massive early game pressure and threats it creates. You're right in that some cases, it's possible for the above decks to do this, but they can't get a win condition in three turns, whereas NM can.
Jolteon EX doesn't work either, since the effect can be negated with Escape Rope + Lysandre (and Target Whistle, if it's the only Pokemon in play). Opening with it is also bad, due to the high chance of it being OHKOed instantly.
Things to consider:
- Yveltal XY still OHKO's Pumpkaboo with Muscle Band thanks to Weakness. Not to mention you still have Zoroark and Gallade to deal with Night Marchers with ease. The fact that Yveltal can't KO Joltiks is really only a minor annoyance.
- But the strategy for the M Manectric match up should still be to try to get a Mega set up quickly so that you can hopefully survive a hit and switch into another M Manectric and Max Potion or at least take a 2HKO. You can't just say "they should never get the chance to Mega Evolve without you being able to KO it," and that be the end of it. That's assuming that every game, you can get Pumpkaboo start, at least 8 Night Marchers in the discard pile, a Fighting Fury Belt, DCE and Dimensional Valley, all of this without using a Supporter because you might need to Lysandre the Manectric they attached an Energy to keep them from being able to use Turbo Bolt. Even if for some reason we are making this assumption, the Manectric player can still use Turbo Bolt with a regular attachment and Mega Turbo (every list I've encountered played about 2). The 2HKO'ing stuff with Overrun isn't the go-to strategy anyways; it's the "I can't get a Mega up, probably going to lose this one, maybe if I get lucky..." plan. With the M Manectric strategy, the 40 HP is irrelevant.
- The Entei matchup might be the only point I'd be willing to concede, though it should be noted that the issue isn't so much Pumpkaboo's "massive" HP, but rather the fact that you can't just slap down a DCE (and Muscle Band and Fighting Fury Belt). You need to Blacksmith more than you'd like if you want to keep your head above water. Entei also has the option of trying to tank a Night March with Assault Vests and Flame Screen, buying time to get more Energy on the field, but that's all a little unclear.
My response to this: When have you ever seen a night march deck that plays escape rope? And if they do, how often do they have it in their hand? Yeah, they could lysandre around it. You pretty much have to expect that. But then you're severely crippling their continued setup. Combine Jolteon-ex with N, and you're pretty much giving them no chance to lysandre around it after the first KO, or you're forcing them to drop more shaymin, which gives you the chance to lysandre back. All i'm sayiing is, it isn't broken. It's a great card. I'll give it that. But it's receiving way more hype than it should be in certain decks. Not to mention Mora is right about the startling megaphone thing. If florida regionals goes how I expect, we're going to be running twice as many tool removal cards as before anyway, since sableye garbodor is going to force us to anyway.
Yveltal does KO Pumpkaboo with Muscle Band, but with only one or two, you won't be able to stream them enough to make the prize trade even enough. Even if you were able to, I can just Target Whistle + Lysandre your Shaymins and/or Yveltals. Also saying that Joltik is a minor annoyance is pretty funny, since a basic attacker that requires one attachment and takes two prizes is far more than just that.
Against MegaMan, again they really shouldn't be able to Mega Evolve. If they do however, you're already up a Manectric EX, and can therefore Target Whistle + Lysandre it into oblivion (alongside Lysandre Shaymin). Saying that Mega Turbo allows them to Turbo Bolt if they do Mega is fair enough, but Mega Turbo is bad in the deck regardless. Why patch a matchup you'll lose anyway? It's not worth the space (and honestly never has been, people are just silly).
Entei needing to Blacksmith a lot has always been the case, but now FFB in NM is the final nail in the coffin as far as that matchup is concerned.
You only need two FFBs in NM, but with PoT this generally goes to three or even four if need be. Xerosic isn't an issue either, doing so slows you down to the point where being able to recover won't happen, regardless of the KO.
Escape Rope is only an option if Jolteon is popular enough (and it shouldn't be). You also mention N, yet fail to read that I am discussing Standard (again, I have no clue on Expanded). Regardless, you don't cripple their set up when you have an Item-based draw engine, that point is just plain wrong. I'm not saying it's broken either, it's very good, but not broken. The argument was made though that Muscle Band was better, and I was explaining just how wrong that was. Both of you have missed the main points here.
I think you're underestimating Jolteon. I think it'll be pretty widely popular in manectric, as well as anything with flexible energy usage. You're right, I didn't read the non-standard part, but judge and red card, along with delinquent, could also cripple them pretty hard. I'm with you on FFB being a stronger choice in standard night March than muscle band.
But if you use Manectric to power up Jolteon, then you have a target for me to KO instead. Judge/Red Card/Delinquent doesn't even matter, since the majority of cards in NM are draw, plus if I draw NMers off Red Card before you Delinquent, you actually help me out with hitting numbers.
Well I suppose it's a good thing the deck can attack with stuff other than Yveltal then. The part about Target Whistle is kind of irrelevant since that's an option independent of Fighting Fury Belt.
Also in this post, you make it sound as if Yveltal XY being able to KO stuff is really negligible saying "you won't be able to stream them enough" for it to really matter, but in your previous post it's in fact the opposite. "The extra 40 HP makes A WORLD of difference in the GYZ matchups ... since now Yveltal XY can't OHKO your attackers, which is a pretty big thing." So I'm left wondering is it a big thing or not? I'm sensing the double standard that it is a big deal when it's a part of your argument, but it's really not all that important when it's a part of mine. I guess either way, you have other attackers to deal with it.
You are misrepresenting me. I didn't say Joltik was a minor annoyance; I said the fact that Yveltal can no longer OHKO Joltik is a minor annoyance. And it is only that since Fighting Fury Belt Joltik is easily OHKO'd by both Zoroark and Gallade.
I feel like for you, this has turned into a debate why Night March beats all of these decks, but if you recall, what got us started in the first place was actually the relevance of the +40 HP from Fighting Fury Belt in Night March. My point wasn't that if the player gets a M Manectric up they win, my point was that the Manectric player had to get a Mega in order to have realistic winning chances, at which point Fighting Fury Belt was irrelevant because 110 > 100. And again, here the part about Target Whistle is irrelevant because we were debating how relevant Fighting Fury Belt would be in Night March. You could Target Whistle with or without Fighting Fury Belt.
It is still yet another option available to players to deal with FFB Night March if for whatever reason they are having trouble dealing with a 100 HP Pumpkaboo. Maybe you can't afford to play Xerosic over a Sycamore. But maybe you can. I played YZG against M Manectric, and I had the proper set up and enough resources in hand that I could afford to play Xerosic 3 turns in a row and actually did to remove 3 Flash Energy and take all six prizes with Gallade. It is a possibility, though for sure, you can't always pull it off just because you have VS Seeker in hand and Xerosic in the discard pile.
Firstly, the deck doesn't have another attacker that can handle the consistent stream of Night Marchers. Not only does Zoroark's OHKO not matter when I target your EXs, but it also can be KOed before evolving, if necessary. You also claim I've made a double standard, when it is in fact your own misinterpretation of my words. My point was that PREVIOUSLY, Yveltal XY was able to hold its own against NM, but since now it would have to stream Muscle Band to get the KO on Pumpkaboo, it can't keep up anymore.
Secondly, the fact that what was once your only viable attacker can no longer take KOs on bother NMers is much more than a minor annoyance, and Zoroark doesn't work due to the above reasons. Theoretically, Gallade works if you can get enough of them during the game. In practice, you never get more than three, after which you just fold.
Thirdly, the M Manectric EX matchup is still patched *very* slightly (I can concede that much, but it's hard to concede more when the matchup was positive anyway) better due to the inability to make double Overrun plays.
Xerosic is an option, but except maybe the mirror, it's too slow. You make a point about how you were able to Xerosic three consecutive turns, and that may work in that matchup, but against NM, if doing so for three turns is allowable, then you probably don't even need to. A better play, for example, most likely would involve going for Zoroark or Gallade. My point being, that in the vast majority of cases, Xerosic doesn't work as far as NM's FFBs are concerned.
First off, that's a match up where I'd probably try to avoid playing down any EX's to begin with, but once again it is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with Fighting Fury Belt. That's the point I'm trying to tackle, not which deck has the more favorable match up. In fact, I don't feel the need to address you KO'ing Zorua before it evolves because that's also something you could do without Fighting Fury Belt.
I see your point, but I don't think it's that much of a stretch when you play three and don't really need Muscle Band on anything else, especially when it's apparently not a stretch for Night March to consistently keep M Manectric off the field, hitting T1 Lysandres, and picking off Zorua's before they evolve. Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but on the whole, I still believe that that particular deck has enough options available to deal with Fighting Fury Belt in Night March.
Even if you Lysandre a Zorua instead of KO'ing Yveltal, then I still have that Yveltal to maybe KO a Pumpkaboo later in the game. Kind of annoying, but that just means I have to be smart about what I KO with what, which is what I'd be doing regardless in that match up.
I definitely agree that a lot of the time, you won't be able to make that play, but still. Some of the time you will. That is all.
At this point though, I'm ready to just agree to disagree. I don't think there's much more that either of us can say to convince the other.
Good luck and have fun trying to stream the only theoretically sound attacker against Night March without discarding EXs to Target Whistle then.
The issue is not streaming enough Yveltal XY (it's been proven that it can be done easily), it's that you also need a Muscle Band on EACH Yveltal, and even if we ignore Joltik for a second, GYZ should only be playing one, MAYBE two Bands, so you can't consistently get those as well, which is the problem.
The issue with still having Yveltal in play is that I don't have to bench Pumpkaboo, and the trade is at least even at that point (although board-wise you're worse since you didn't go after Joltik). And again, it doesn't matter what you KO with, since Lysandre + Target Whistle lets me pick, unless you have a full bench, which is extremely difficult to have (remember, you can't have an EX, as NM can just Lysandre it).
You missed the point about Xerosic again. It was that if you CAN do it, then you would have won just the same as if you didn't, except for ridiculously unusual circumstances in which GYZ generally wins anyway.