Discussion Houndoom Mill Viability?

GengarGuys

GengarGuys

"Pickle Enthusiast"
Member
Pokemon:
  • 4 Houndoom-EX (BKT 21)
  • 2 Shaymin-EX (ROS 106)
Trainers/Supporters/Stadiums:
  • 1 Hex Maniac (AOR 75)
  • 4 Team Flare Grunt (XY 129)
  • 2 Trick Shovel (FLF 98)
  • 3 Super Scoop Up (FUF 100)
  • 3 Professor Birch's Observations (PCL 159)
  • 1 Professor's Letter (BKT 146)
  • 1 Shauna (PHF 104)
  • 3 Head Ringer (PHF 97)
  • 3 Judge (BKT 143)
  • 4 Ultra Ball (ROS 93)
  • 2 Enhanced Hammer (PCL 162)
  • 3 VS Seeker (ROS 110)
  • 3 Team Aqua's Secret Base (DCR 28)
  • 4 Crushing Hammer (KSS 34)
  • 3 Hard Charm (XY 119)
  • 2 Lysandre (FLF 104)
  • 2 Xerosic (PHF 119)
  • 4 Trainers' Mail (AOR 100)
Energy:
  • 6 Fire Energy (XY 133)

I need to 100% credit this deck to @socery. I got this list from the "What rogues are people playing?" thread from @socery. I love this deck because they do play the super scoop ups, but now I am EXTREMELY angered because I ordered my deck for cities about 2 minutes prior to this list coming up on pokebeach. I will most likely play the deck at cities though. I would only make one change to the deck.


-1 Hex Maniac

+1 Bunnelby

Bunnelby could easily make this deck a lot better just because it can prolong the game by creating a 7 prize game. This deck does require a huge amount of skill because you need to know when to strategically concede. If you are 3-4 prizes down and you don't concede because you think you can play it out you will mostly likely lose the round. I would recommend this deck to beginners only at League Challenges where it is only 1 game per round.

Thanks for taking a look! Also again a special thanks to the genius @socery for creating this list and showing it to me!

-Gengar
 
I just don't consider Houndoom a great mill card, to be honest. I'm not sure how many Pokemon don't hit below 200 so your Houndoom can actually survive a few turns, so I'd nearly say Bunnelby is better as your opponent has to KO it 6 times instead of 3/4 for Houndoom. I guess there is that option of Mega Evolving and using Shrine of Memories.
 
Well using Houndoom, you can use AZ or Super Scoop Up to get it back. Also Houndoom has 170 HP whereas, Bunnelby has 60. So Houndoom has almost triple the HP of bunnelby which makes it well worth it to take up 2 prize cards.
 
I think you missed my point. Looking at the lists below, there is a significant amount of top tier decks that can 1-hit KO a Houndoom-EX with a 20 damage buffer, and they theoretically only have to do this three times to win the game. This is unlike Bunnelby where your opponent must KO 6 times. So basically it really depends on the meta. Of course Houndoom can stand up to rogues better, so some food for thought.

Here is a list of competitive Pokemon that can do 200 damage or more:
- M-Rayquaza-EX
- Vespiquen
- Night March
- Flareon
- Raichu
- Keldeo-EX
- P-Kyogre-EX
- P-Groudon-EX
- Virtually all [W] types
- Camerupt-EX

Borderline:
- Lugia-EX
- Yveltal-EX
- M-Mewtwo-EX
- Landorus/Lucario-EX

Here is a list of Pokemon that cannot do 200 damage or more in a single sitting
- Seismitoad-EX
- Giratina-EX
- Accelgor (But locks anyway)
- (M-)Manectric-EX
- M-Sceptile-EX
 
But you also need to take into account the 17 distruption cards we play.

Here is a list of the same decks and why I can counter them.

- M-Rayquaza-EX
Head Ringer can take place of it's spirit link while I discard energies off of the active.

-Vespiquen
I can use Grand Flame to attack and KO, it is also very hard to hit for 200 damage with it. Enhanced Hammer, Flare Grunt, Xerosic, Crushing Hammer.

-Night March
This is a standard format deck. Night March becomes less potent with the loss of Mew-EX, Hammers, Flare Grunt, Xerosic.

-Flareon
Standard format.

-Raichu
Also very hard to get 200 damage 4 times around, Counter Stadium, Hammers, Flare Grunt, Xerosic.

-Keldeo-EX
Standard format.

-P-Kyogre
Hard to setup when I am using Head Ringers, Hammers, Flare Grunt, and Xerosic.

-P-Groudon
Alright I'll take this one as a loss.

-All Water Types
Such as...? (Remember this is standard so if you tell me some make sure they are standard.)

-Camerupt-EX
Slow deck that I can take advantage of early on because of one energy mills.

-Lugia-EX
Really hard to setup 200 when I have one energy on me. Head Ringers, Hammers, Xerosic, Flare Grunt.

-Yveltal-EX
Same reason for Lugia.

-M Mewtwo

Same reason for Lugia and Yveltal. Head Ringers, Hammers, Xerosic, Flare Grunt.

-Landorus/Lucario
Landorus: Standard format.

Lucario: Fighting Stadium, 3 Strong Energies, Muscle Band is what it takes to do 200 damage. Head Ringers, Hammers, Xerosic, Flare Grunt.
 
Thing is, most of your counters are trainers that can be used in a Bunnelby deck too, meaning it theoretically will have the same matchups, but is particularly advantageous in the prize trade. Anyway, I feel like the two could really just be a choice of preference. :p

EDIT: What is the deck that you bought for citys? I can't really imagine Houndoom doing particularly well as the mill is relatively slow, but it does depend.
 
My cities decks will change between Giratina/Zong and Seismitoad/Giratina.

I do suppose that with the Bunnelby variant you could play Teammates which could help you out a lot along with robo-sub.
 
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Bunnelby was just unhelpful in the deck. Houndoom has built in energy retrieval in it's second attack, and I never wanted to send it up. Houndoom just simply did a better job. @bbninjas you put in some good arguments. I too though about the time limit. When you are hitting the turn two mill most of the time, I find that most of my games take about 15-20 minutes. There are many pokemon which can OHKO. Hard charm helps. Also, team aqua's secret base and lysandre really are hard to play around. However, many of the cards you listed do not see competitive play (at least in standard/ my area). Also, you are underestimating the deck 1) getting set up under the extreme desruption and 2) assuming your resources stay in the deck and not discarded. The second point is what I feel makes the deck amazing. I almost always get a turn two Melting horn, and with that I can discard DCE's, VS Seekers, and vital attackers. I suggest just building the list to try it out. Also, the hex maniac really puts it's work in turn one and/or against Bees. @GengarGuys I love the shout out. I would stick with it if I were you. I personally believe this deck is severely underrated currently and would be a good play.

I suppose I touched on it above, but Lysandre/ Team Aqua's Secret Base/ Head Ringer beats many heavy hitters. Even when they bring something active, I can discard most of their energy. If anybody has a question on a matchup, I'd love to explain it to you, and what I think it is.
 
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Yeah, Robo subs really just buy you a turn. And in a deck where you are literally knocking nothing out, buying turns really would only potentially help you in the bee/ Might Narch matchup.
 
socery said:
Also, you are underestimating the deck 1) getting set up under the extreme desruption and 2) assuming your resources stay in the deck and not discarded. The second point is what I feel makes the deck amazing. I almost always get a turn two Melting horn, and with that I can discard DCE's, VS Seekers, and vital attackers.
Click to expand...

...so what about when you whiff on hitting any vital cards?

Sorry, but that seems like a major concern. Even successfully discarding the three you mentioned only matters some of the time, maybe even most of the time, but not all of the time. Not saying the deck is bad because of it, but you bring up someone else underestimating the deck, but when you're relying on discarding something critical in a timely manner from what is usually a randomized top of the deck, that seems more like you're overestimating your luck.
 
Otaku said:
...so what about when you whiff on hitting any vital cards?

Sorry, but that seems like a major concern. Even successfully discarding the three you mentioned only matters some of the time, maybe even most of the time, but not all of the time. Not saying the deck is bad because of it, but you bring up someone else underestimating the deck, but when you're relying on discarding something critical in a timely manner from what is usually a randomized top of the deck, that seems more like you're overestimating your luck.
Click to expand...

Maybe I am. But by sheer luck you will discard some. I think you might have misunderstood a little bit. When I say underestimated, I just mean relatively unknown. I'm not really sure if people are thinking about this currently. Also, the deck doesn't completely rely on discarding critical cards, but it can help. For the most part, what you rely on is consistent attacking, lysandre, head ringer, and Team Aqua's secret base (TASB, but it also isn't necessary). Sorry for any confusion.
 
I faced this deck and lost to it a few times too using Toadtina but it suffers hard vs Toad due to Houndooms water weakness and the obvious strength of quaking punch.
 
I made a mill deck with a list very similar to gengar guys and have been losing a majority of my matches.
Anything with energy acceleration is an auto-loss. Night march is very difficult and frankly not very
many good match-ups. I even faced some unusual decks that had no trouble dispatching me.
Aqua base + lysandre is easy to work around with switch, az, rope, and scoops. Most decks can
easily 2 shot Hound and if you don't have an AZ/scoop, you're done. I'm going to switch to the
Mega-Hound and see how that works for me, which is another deck that owns this one.
 
idc what you say about your matchups, 17 disruption cards = worst dead draw in your life. I know a player that has it at 12 and he still has the worst dead draw ever, same initial strategy that you guys have going on, I still win even playing toad tina, because I have one thing your deck does not, consistency.
 
Except Houndoom mill does have consistency. The Item Lock is instead most impacting, with weakness as runner up. :p
 
I agree with Yo-yo's in that the disruption cards give you a lot of dead hands at times. On on the other
side of it, I've had great draws where I'm able to play all the cards I want and the opponent is still able to counter
it fairly easy. Energy acceleration and even single DC attachments can't be countered and most decks can easily hit
doom for 120+ or even an ohko with no charm. They can easily pick up energy from the discard (blacksmith, etc)
and continue to consistently do damage. M-man , M-doom, Nightmarch, Bees, Gallade were all difficult assuming
your opponent knows what he is doing. It's less of a matchup issue and more of a viability issue imo.
 
Fun fact: @Asmer started a Houndoom discussion thread (http://www.pokebeach.com/forums/threads/the-blazing-hellhound-m-houndoom-ex-discussion.126551/) a few weeks ago and it has had more views (most by 1,000+) than any other single-topic, "current" (i.e., either on first or second page of this Forum) thread. During this week, I've played several players running Doom decks; so, the "threat" of encountering it at upcoming tournaments may be quite real, IMO - time will tell.

IMO, the Achilles heel to this Doom deck is if the player is, first of all, not Item-locked and can hit the Super Scoop Ups and Crushing Hammers at the right time - good luck must be on that Doom player's side. In addition, if the opponent has means of recycling discarded resources (e.g., Bunnelby (PRC 121), Super Rod, etc.) that too is a nice counter to the mill strategy.
 
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