Finished Mafia LI: Senate Subterfuge~Game Over!

Status
Not open for further replies.

GM DracLord

Shadow of Death
Member
On Lele issue I stated before, he is still new to the game so I gave the benefit of a doubt when reading his action for Day1. That is my way of thinking of the issue
 

mirdo

Seagull Overlord and Business Entrepreneur
Member
Is this just you’re daily random line or is this a scum slip because you know wjo scum is?
What? Lele litterally got confirmed scum by the hosts. Do you not pay any attention?
The role revealed in the update does not state either of those things and there is no reason to suspect them.
Why not? It is worth reading into in my book. We need all the information we can get. I for my part don't want to run into a bulletproof lynch. If you want to do that. Have fun.
This is scummy.
Really isn't. It's called flavor.

Also. I know this sounds weird.... But maybe we shouldn't lynch Lele? Because. We know 100% he is scum. And we know his ability. So he is not a threat. Might aswell keep him around. If he managed to "get out" of his basement. The other 2 are probably gonna be able to tell us and then we can lynch him still.

Just as an idea really.
 

Scattered mind

Competitive VG Forums Mod
Forum Mod
Member
What? Lele litterally got confirmed scum by the hosts. Do you not pay any attention?

Why not? It is worth reading into in my book. We need all the information we can get. I for my part don't want to run into a bulletproof lynch. If you want to do that. Have fun.

Really isn't. It's called flavor.

Also. I know this sounds weird.... But maybe we shouldn't lynch Lele? Because. We know 100% he is scum. And we know his ability. So he is not a threat. Might aswell keep him around. If he managed to "get out" of his basement. The other 2 are probably gonna be able to tell us and then we can lynch him still.

Just as an idea really.

If you are worried that Tapu Lele might have a secret bulletproof ability, you should consider that it is more likely that any secret ability he might have can also be obtained via escaping the basement. So, in any case, we are risking him having a scummy ability activating. Only that lynching him early on prevents this from becoming a much greater issue when there are few of us.
 

GM DracLord

Shadow of Death
Member
If you are worried that Tapu Lele might have a secret bulletproof ability, you should consider that it is more likely that any secret ability he might have can also be obtained via escaping the basement. So, in any case, we are risking him having a scummy ability activating. Only that lynching him early on prevents this from becoming a much greater issue when there are few of us.
Agree with SM, @mirdo i don't think the risk you are proposing is worth taking

Since Lele is host confirmed to be scum we should lynch him (just nor turbo lynch we need the lenght of the day), unless somehow Lele has an ability that would show himself as scum is scanned by others which is very unlikely but not impossible..
 

double o squirtle

Sweet Summer Child
Member
@Celever you said you'd make a case on bb in our certamen QT. Where is it? :U
Where's your vote? :UUU
Lele is host confirmed scum, there's no need to vote right now. You should know this.
Claiming? Now? Idk if that was smart because have you gotten a message that someone tried killing you?
I did in fact get a message.
Somebody tried to kill you last night! Luckily, you were saved by your many friends.
Honestly I'm surprised I got targeted. Like, if I were scum I would have NKd bb or Jabber. Those two have been the most productive imo.
 

NinjaPenguin

Always standing out from the crowd.
Member
A Sudden Reveal
In the Curia, a man begins to cry. From the pressure of this job he feels as though he can't handle, the power others wield over him, and the threats his enemies have been issuing. "Bibulus," Vrackenian asks, "What is the matter?"
"I'm scared!" Bibulus shouts, "I'm so worried that somebody will think that I'm a bad guy!"
"You have no need to worry," Vrackenian replies, "I think you have perfectly proven your complete innocence here."

Luxinity has revealed themself to be Marcus Calpurnius Bibulus, aligned with the Loyalists.
This is not to be doubted in any way, shape, or form. Lux is host confirmed to be a Loyalist.
 

GM DracLord

Shadow of Death
Member
Luxinity has revealed themself to be Marcus Calpurnius Bibulus, aligned with the​
Loyalists
.​
This is not to be doubted in any way, shape, or form. Lux is host confirmed to be a Loyalist.

Normally I would be glad to have someone that I could trust but unless @Luxinity started playing this reveal amount to just a glimmer
but nonetheless that is one less people to be worry about
 

Celever

Wheeeee~
Member
Claiming? Now? Idk if that was smart because have you gotten a message that someone tried killing you? Before someone says this is rolefishing, it isn’t. I’m asking for 1 specific thing which isn’t even about the role itself. It’s just that he would’ve gotten a message if his ability was triggered. Some hosts do, some hosts don’t.
There's nothing wrong with claiming now: it confirms him as town for the day (as no one has counterclaimed him). It's possible that he's making a mafia play to bait the doc, but that's a bit conspiracy.
Why not? It is worth reading into in my book. We need all the information we can get. I for my part don't want to run into a bulletproof lynch. If you want to do that. Have fun.
The issue is we have literally no more reason to suspect he's got a death-proof vest than we have for any other player in this game. If you have a reason, just say that you have one. That really shouldn't trigger anti-claim mechanisms, and if it does Vrack and NP are meanies sooooo.
Also. I know this sounds weird.... But maybe we shouldn't lynch Lele? Because. We know 100% he is scum. And we know his ability. So he is not a threat. Might aswell keep him around. If he managed to "get out" of his basement. The other 2 are probably gonna be able to tell us and then we can lynch him still.
This is true. Though we don't have any information surrounding how he would get out of the basement in his role, this would traditionally be a democratic vote within the mason chat, and obviously this isn't going to happen now that the other two people in the chat know that he's mafia. Keeping him around gives us a failsafe later on, and lynching him now means we don't get as much information as we would by lynching someone new. So I support this decision.

Also, just because Lele is mafia it doesn't mean that the case that was made on him yesterday was a good case. I stand by my stance yesterday that the rolefishing wasn't indicative of alignment, and the fact that Lele is in fact mafia is largely coincidental.
 

Jabberwock

#Jovimohnaeliackvid
Forum Mod
Articles Staff
Member
Remember how Tapu defended himself by asking what was scummy in the specific way he rolefished, and how I said this defense seems to be coming from bbninjas? bbninjas later even acknowledged that this is something he told Tapu, but that it was said to him last game as a host. However, consider two things: bbninjas never voted Tapu Lele. bbninjas voted me shortly after because he said my accusation was Wifomy. This shows to me sort of a panic act, as if that was really what he thought, he would not come and explain how he told Tapu lele about this type of defense. After all, if my point on Tapu and Lele is negated only by the fact that bbninjas told him about it as a host last game, then the point itself is valid.
I agree it's worth looking into bb on principle as he was one of the vets who defended Lele, but as a cohost from last game I can confirm that he did in fact tell Lele what he claims to have told him.
Why not? It is worth reading into in my book. We need all the information we can get. I for my part don't want to run into a bulletproof lynch. If you want to do that. Have fun.
Barring an unexpected certamen win or something, Lele is not bulletproof or it would've shown up in his reveal. Is there a chance, however slight, that some part of TE's certamen caused the reveal of only one of Lele's Abilities, or otherwise excised part of his role? Yeah, there's a chance. But we can't plan for literally every contingency or we'd never get anything done. In this case, we should follow Occam's Razor––which states that the least convoluted plan is the correct one––and just assume that Lele's scum.
Really isn't. It's called flavor.
That wasn't flavor; that was a direct and unnecessary comment about the events of the previous night. This is a classic scum tactic to appear town––"Oh man TE really helped us out with that one! Good on ya TE!"
Also. I know this sounds weird.... But maybe we shouldn't lynch Lele? Because. We know 100% he is scum. And we know his ability. So he is not a threat. Might aswell keep him around. If he managed to "get out" of his basement. The other 2 are probably gonna be able to tell us and then we can lynch him still.
This isn't a good idea, but I was willing to dismiss it as new town until I realized you literally have not offered up a single alternative lynch candidate.
##VOTE: mirdo
@Celever you said you'd make a case on bb in our certamen QT. Where is it? :U
Speaking of that QT, can one of you or Celever tell us what TE said in it to convince Cel of his scumminess?
Lele is host confirmed scum, there's no need to vote right now. You should know this.
There is always a need to vote. If you're not voting for Lele, it's because you'd rather be pursuing somebody else for the duration of the day.
Sorry im blind.

Okay cool.
Mord. Thoughts on anything? Lele, bb, scattered, mirdo?
 

Celever

Wheeeee~
Member
[QUOTE="Jabberwock, post: 2947811, member: 107419"Speaking of that QT, can one of you or Celever tell us what TE said in it to convince Cel of his scumminess?[/quote]
He argued that we shouldn't give the certamen prize to anybody. Saying convince is strong, but it was the best D1 lead cos most of the game wasn't talking.
There is always a need to vote. If you're not voting for Lele, it's because you'd rather be pursuing somebody else for the duration of the day.
Respond to the case for not voting Lele, then.
 

bbninjas

Ready or Not!
Advanced Member
Member
Since the certamen is over, all things said there can be disclosed now. Apologies if this was confusing.
@Celever, can you disclose those reasons now?

Honestly I'm surprised I got targeted. Like, if I were scum I would have NKd bb or Jabber. Those two have been the most productive imo.
I'm surprised you think I'm most productive tbh, 'cause I haven't been able to be that invested in this game. The only thing I've really done is say why I don't think Lele should be lynched, and suggest scattered based on evidence that I hadn't yet doubled back and checked, neither of which have been a great help in catching out mafians...

Although, something I did just think of then: if Cel said he would build a case on me, and if there was a mafian in that Certamen chat, I can't imagine the mafians considering me a good NK.

Remember how Tapu defended himself by asking what was scummy in the specific way he rolefished, and how I said this defense seems to be coming from bbninjas? bbninjas later even acknowledged that this is something he told Tapu, but that it was said to him last game as a host. However, consider two things: bbninjas never voted Tapu Lele. bbninjas voted me shortly after because he said my accusation was Wifomy. This shows to me sort of a panic act, as if that was really what he thought, he would not come and explain how he told Tapu lele about this type of defense. After all, if my point on Tapu and Lele is negated only by the fact that bbninjas told him about it as a host last game, then the point itself is valid.
Two things to think about: I reckon I've played this game enough to not have 'panic' come through in my voting, nor be panicked if a scumbuddy was getting heavily pressured; I said that your theory, that Tapu was getting scumchat help, was WIFOMy and not substantiated - that's different to "this particular argument sounds like something bbn would say", since it can be easily substantiated that your observation is true. It would have been pretty scummy of me to not give an explanation there, when I probably knew the cause. (And it can be proven that I actually said this to Lele, since Jabber had access to that conversation.)

I didn't realise that Lele said he came up with that himself though (and then checked my posts in previous games)! That's very odd. @Tapu Lele ???

Every single veteran who didn't vote for Tapu Lele or at least acknowledged how scummy he was is scummy to me. His role fishing was scummy as hell. Including AtE plus attempts to make people's cases invalid (see the posts about "2 veterans with different thoughts about me").
So you may understand why I put a veteran who defended Tapu, no less, in the highest place of my scum list at the moment:

Notice also how right after saying he doesn't think Lele was scum, he asks Celever about a possible motive Lele might have. That might be a subtle way to get info from town as to what exactly they think.
I'm not sure why saying "I don't think he's mafian" (what I said) automatically means that I think he's not scummy (what you say I thought)? I mean, some players have been scummy (i.e. Gekki is classic) but that doesn't make them mafian, and in Mafia 50, I thought it was highly anti-town for Lele to be fishing for information as much as he did, but that didn't make him scum. I would've though that I said or implied that the rolefishing was scummy at some point though, are you sure I didn't?

It's in the magical land of like, 2 irl days away, because I'm hosting a party today and sorting out the aftermath of the party tomorrow Dx. Might end up on Day 3.
Any defense from me will probably be of a 2 irl delay too, so yeah. >.>'
 

bbninjas

Ready or Not!
Advanced Member
Member
Mord. Thoughts on anything? Lele, bb, scattered, mirdo?
Let's chuck "Jabber" and "Celever" in that mix too please >.>

He argued that we shouldn't give the certamen prize to anybody. Saying convince is strong, but it was the best D1 lead cos most of the game wasn't talking.
Did you think that was scummy because T_E didn't want a pro-town effect in play, or something to that effect?
 

Tapu Lele

Inflated and Overstocked
Member
... Eheu!? Quid Feci!?!?!

Seriously - this is quite a surprise, even to me. That's not my role! The role I got did not even say I was "mafia" or "Triumverate". In fact, I can't even claim my role because the hosts are preventing me from doing so. There is an exclusive rule that prevents it. I even had to ask the host for permission to say even that much, because this stuff must be "host approved".

That makes me wonder...
I have an ability that saves me from being killed. So I guess scum tried to NK me? Gj ya dummies. :U
If you are telling the truth, why are you saying this about your role? Don't you risk anti-claim measures coming into effect?

Given DoS seems fine boasting about this, perhaps the claim rules are tailored differently for each person? I can't imagine everyone being simply unable to claim, like me. I guess we should check back in a couple of days to see if any anti-claim measures actually come into effect :V

Also, I'm kinda questioning the sanity of this "Oracle of Delphi" for several reasons
  1. It's claiming I have a different role -_-
  2. Historically, this figure has been seen giving stupidly ambiguous answers that sound good so that the oracle can appear correct. Take for instance the interaction between Croesus, King of Lydia, and the oracle. He asks whether he should go to war with Persia. He gets the answer "If you send an army against the Persians you will destroy a great empire." Thinking that this "great empire" is Persia, he goes to war, but ends up losing. Thus, the great empire of Lydia was destroyed, as as fulfilled by the prophesy.
  3. When TE died, the oracle sent a message immediately. Therefore, it did not wait for TE's death to get a choice of target, painting me a "Triumverate Member" before the night and opening me up to a possible Viligante kill or, if it came to be, Mafia NK. It seems then as if the Oracle automatically selected me? Maybe it could be the case that TE selected me as a target before death, but that seems a bit cumbersome, given that the user would constantly have to update his choice before any potential (or surprise) death.
  4. This was a freebie ability from a Certamen. One that is surprisingly tailored to those who lack knowledge about Roman History. Is it really the omen you might believe it to be, or is it just something to stir up the game? It just sounds kinda gimmicky.
 

Acetrainer_Samwise

Aspiring Trainer
Member
If your not town or mafia than what are you.



Most likely an independent faction which has different goals from the town so you might as well be scum...

##VERB:::: TAPU lELE
 

Tapu Lele

Inflated and Overstocked
Member
Umm yes, and hey, why didn't you just say, like bbninjas, that this is something bb told you last game? because it never happened?
Maybe I'm missing context here @scattered mind, but what are you saying exactly? Which message are you referring to?

I didn't realise that Lele said he came up with that himself though (and then checked my posts in previous games)! That's very odd. @Tapu Lele ???
What's so odd about all of this? I asked why my role-hunting in particular was scummy? It helped me get a better understanding of the game (I'm still looking up guides ever since this rolehunting landed me in deep water), and I also got a look at how original people were crafting their responses, and if people were actually reading my responses.

One night, when I was trapped in a grocery store with just my phone, I took it upon myself to read some mafia guides and check back on some earlier games. I noticed that you asked players "why" a particular action was scummy, so it reminded me of how my own response was crafted.

I agree it's worth looking into bb on principle as he was one of the vets who defended Lele, but as a cohost from last game I can confirm that he did in fact tell Lele what he claims to have told him.
Hey, that's interesting. My conversation was in a private Discord chat after the game ended.
 

Celever

Wheeeee~
Member
Seriously - this is quite a surprise, even to me. That's not my role! The role I got did not even say I was "mafia" or "Triumverate". In fact, I can't even claim my role because the hosts are preventing me from doing so. There is an exclusive rule that prevents it. I even had to ask the host for permission to say even that much, because this stuff must be "host approved".

That makes me wonder...

If you are telling the truth, why are you saying this about your role? Don't you risk anti-claim measures coming into effect?

Given DoS seems fine boasting about this, perhaps the claim rules are tailored differently for each person? I can't imagine everyone being simply unable to claim, like me. I guess we should check back in a couple of days to see if any anti-claim measures actually come into effect :V
TBH all of this anti-claim mechanism stuff is a bit of a mess, because we're left in the dark. Though admittedly this entire portion of your post is odd to me, as when I've asked NP about anti-claim mechanics I got this response:
NinjaPenguin said:
ICNCND anything about anti-claim mechanics.
So it's weird that the hosts are directly preventing you from claiming your role. From my interactions with them, it seemed like they were taking more of a hands-off, "if you trigger the mechanics that's on you we're just telling you to be careful". What do you mean by exclusive rule, though? Because that seems really strange to me.
Also, I'm kinda questioning the sanity of this "Oracle of Delphi" for several reasons
It's claiming I have a different role -_-
Well, I'll give you that one :U
Historically, this figure has been seen giving stupidly ambiguous answers that sound good so that the oracle can appear correct. Take for instance the interaction between Croesus, King of Lydia, and the oracle. He asks whether he should go to war with Persia. He gets the answer "If you send an army against the Persians you will destroy a great empire." Thinking that this "great empire" is Persia, he goes to war, but ends up losing. Thus, the great empire of Lydia was destroyed, as as fulfilled by the prophesy.
While your account of the legend is technically true, I disagree with your conclusion. The story is a warning surrounding how the overconfident create echo chambers and therefore remain ignorant to wisdom, rather than that the wisdom itself was faulty: Apollo created the oracle specifically because he believed all of the other oracles were far too vague with their assertions, and so he wanted to create a reliable one. Yeah, he gave Pythia the ability to see the future under the restriction that her answers would be open to multiple interpretations, but the certamen result isn't that because it's really not open to multiple interpretations. Look:
NinjaPenguin said:
With his death, however, he was able to use his power he won from the first certamen, guidance from the Oracle at Delphi, to reveal Tapu Lele's role. Tapu Lele is:
"Tapu Lele is" cannot be interpreted in more than one way, so it appears as though the hosts aren't doing the whole non-specificity thing that the Oracle of Delphi is known for.
Tapu Lele said:
When TE died, the oracle sent a message immediately. Therefore, it did not wait for TE's death to get a choice of target, painting me a "Triumverate Member" before the night and opening me up to a possible Viligante kill or, if it came to be, Mafia NK. It seems then as if the Oracle automatically selected me? Maybe it could be the case that TE selected me as a target before death, but that seems a bit cumbersome, given that the user would constantly have to update his choice before any potential (or surprise) death.
Abilities which activate on death and so you have to keep changing your active target do exist and are fairly common, actually. And if it did randomly select you, then I don't see how that nullifies its results.
Tapu Lele said:
This was a freebie ability from a Certamen. One that is surprisingly tailored to those who lack knowledge about Roman History. Is it really the omen you might believe it to be, or is it just something to stir up the game? It just sounds kinda gimmicky.
Oh yeah, horrendously gimmicky. Not a fan of how this turned out tbh it seems very unfair on you, especially with the anti-claim mechanics.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top