Finished Mafia XLVIII: Motfia

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TOTAL_EPICNESS

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Not really sure what to think I do agree that Lorde and NP are acting suspiciously but then again so is just about everyone in this game
 

PMJ

happy thoughts
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NinjaPenguin: Lord bbninjas bbninjas (1)
The Last Shaymin: bbninjas (0)
bbninjas: Gekki simsands TLS Mariano T_E (0)
simsands: quaking (0)
GekkisaiDaiNi: NP bbninjas Lord, TLS (2)
TOTAL_EPICNESS: Jade Gekki NP, Gekki GP (2)
quakingpunch73: Lord (0)
Lord o da rings: GP NP simsands, Mariano, Gekki (3)
Mariano11887: Gekki simsands (0)
TeamAqua4Life #HEYNICK: Jade T_E (1)
Jadethepokemontrainer: bbninjas (0)
GrandPanacea: quaking (1)

Lord is at L-3.

Not voting: Aqua, T_E

Only halfway done with the first day. I am pleased with the activity levels, for the most part. I also forgot that there is not ~30 people in the game so in hindsight asking people to make three posts seems kinda silly. I knew I shoulda made it 20.
 

bbninjas

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20 posts sounds good, PMJ!

...it isn't defense? It's called posting my opinions on your case :L

Also, another thing to bear in mind is that NP never actually voted for either of us, so he may just be trying to pressure as many people as possible.
You're definitely posting your opinions a lot, and spending a lot of your posts trying to give excuse as to why NP's sudden focus shift isn't scummy, which I say "defense". :p

Because, to me, Lorde and you are at the same level of scummyness (sorry if the word doesn't exist), but there was (and there is) a better case built on her than on you.
First thing, it doesn't follow that we are at the same level of scumminess if you think Lorde has a better case on her. Secondly, if we are the same level of scumminess, then you should be able to articulate reasons for me being scummy (that isn't "defended TE, voted Gekki"), and so you should have been able to start your own case. This post doesn't make much sense.

Also I still don’t feel like there is enough concrete evidence for me to feel fully satisfied with whomever I vote for I know it would probably change but still
Concrete evidence is a luxury in this game - you will probably never find it; plus, you aren't locked in to your vote - changing it is very normal. Who are you thinking is more likely to be scum and why?
 

bbninjas

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@GekkisaiDaiNi Do you have any other scumreads?

I'd like to point out that bb's play this game is super similar to last game's, in which he was scum. However, I haven't actually seen bb's town meta before and I wouldn't be shocked if his town and scum metas are extremely similar, since he is really good at Mafia.
Yeah, there's a reason that I didn't get lynched or have much suspicion thrown on me besides "he should be dead by now".
 

Lorde

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Reviewing the thread, stuff I've missed from the past few hours. Writing as I go, so there may/may not be some unintended echoing, but here we go.
Gekki, mind removing all points that actually apply to yourself to in all future cases? I find it strange to read someone as scum for something you're insinuating that you do as town, unless it's extremely off meta.

That means all that's left is:
-OOC sheepy mentality~Although neither sheepy nor mentality are the words I'd use to describe this, her lack of being able to justify her vote rings a lot of alarm bells for me. This is really what's pinging me badly from Lorde.
-Tunneling (It seems like she's out of points that haven't been debunked on me, but still isn't moving her vote.)~Somewhat applicable to you too, though you backpedaled once you realized your tunneling was stupid.
-Somewhat over-protective of TE~Chainsaw defense argument only applies if we see a TE flip.

Mind trying to keep up that kind of stuff out throughout the whole game? Because being too hasty to lynch you is a good point that I didn't notice.
As you watch us play, try to slowly absorb what we do, and try to do some of the scumhunting yourself (or at least comment on cases and/or stuff you find illogical).
Talk about a switch, weren't you just targeting Gekki 2 seconds ago? It really looks like NP's trying to make a Lynch on me look slightly plausible while not voting for me because vanity.
TLDR:

-OOC sheepy mentality
-Voting based off of small, shaky points
-Tunneling (It seems like she's out of points that haven't been debunked on me, but still isn't moving her vote.)
-Somewhat over-protective of TE
-A few hypocritical posts/scumreads.

And with that, ##VOTE: Lorde.
- I like to think I'm smarter than blatantly buddying with BB then just bandwagoning in a way that'd put me in the spotlight. No, I voted you for a now clearly different reason.
- Define: D1
- Now this is an actually good point, and I see no fault in you bringing this up.
- I'm defending him against bulls*** points, not him as a player.
- How?
I think the main point on Lorde right now is the tunneling. She has basically no reason (or if she does, she isn't disclosing it) to keep her vote on me, yet she still does.
In all honesty, the only reason I kept it there at this point was I was not seeing anyone else who was looking scummy. Why/where would I move my vote to? Not myself because what you'd suggest.
I'd like to point out that bb's play this game is super similar to last game's, in which he was scum. However, I haven't actually seen bb's town meta before and I wouldn't be shocked if his town and scum metas are extremely similar, since he is really good at Mafia.
BB's play is extremely similar as any alignment really. You have to really be looking at him (this is why he's so hard for me to read in general).

I'm turning in for the night, and I'm probably gonna be doing some work in the morning.
 

Draskk

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Reviewing the thread, stuff I've missed from the past few hours. Writing as I go, so there may/may not be some unintended echoing, but here we go.

Talk about a switch, weren't you just targeting Gekki 2 seconds ago? It really looks like NP's trying to make a Lynch on me look slightly plausible while not voting for me because vanity.

- I like to think I'm smarter than blatantly buddying with BB then just bandwagoning in a way that'd put me in the spotlight. No, I voted you for a now clearly different reason.
- Define: D1
- Now this is an actually good point, and I see no fault in you bringing this up.
- I'm defending him against bulls*** points, not him as a player.
- How?

In all honesty, the only reason I kept it there at this point was I was not seeing anyone else who was looking scummy. Why/where would I move my vote to? Not myself because what you'd suggest.

BB's play is extremely similar as any alignment really. You have to really be looking at him (this is why he's so hard for me to read in general).

I'm turning in for the night, and I'm probably gonna be doing some work in the morning.
I can't pick a vote for you. Find some scumreads and make a case.

-W/e
-It wouldn't be scummy if you hadn't tunneled with it.
-Either way, I wanted him to respond and he didn't because of you, so it's defending.
-Read my ISO.

Add unwillingness to scumhunt to my case. She's basically asking me to find a vote for her, while she still leaves her vote on me. That's really scummy because scum could just hammer me at this point, and if they don't, then we know for certain there is in fact scum on my wagon already. The scummiest person on my wagon? Lorde.
 

bbninjas

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The irony here is that Gekki is majorly tunneling Lorde, increasingly more than the other way around.

Just making a few corrections, since the tunnel vision is distorting things:
- Lorde's post clearly indicates that she does not have time to simply "make a case" - she was checking in before going to sleep.
- that w/e response is completely disregarding a very legitimate piece of reasoning
- sitting around waiting for TE's response (whenever that may be) would have been a waste of time, and so by this logic, Lorde was actually playing pro-town.
- expecting people to read a full ISO is unrealistic (not everyone has that much patience!), especially when the majority of the quotes are just you saying "null".
- Not repeating a reason when asked is unhelpful, and my brief skim of the ISO didn't show up anything convincing.
- the reason for Lorde's "unwillingness" is pretty clear: Lorde has put her vote on the scummiest player in her opinion (you), you says this should change, and so Lorde asks to whom
- scum cannot just hammer you at this point. They need 3(+) votes, and even if they coordinated that, we would get a nice list of likely mafians to lynch (so win-win to town).
- therefore there is no guarantee that there is scum on your wagon (and in fact, the amount of attention that gets pushed on them could deter mafia from the wagon).
 

bbninjas

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I am also getting very sick of this whole Gekki vs Lorde thing, especially how repetitive these points and defenses are...
 

Draskk

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The irony here is that Gekki is majorly tunneling Lorde, increasingly more than the other way around.

Just making a few corrections, since the tunnel vision is distorting things:
- Lorde's post clearly indicates that she does not have time to simply "make a case" - she was checking in before going to sleep.
- that w/e response is completely disregarding a very legitimate piece of reasoning
- sitting around waiting for TE's response (whenever that may be) would have been a waste of time, and so by this logic, Lorde was actually playing pro-town.
- expecting people to read a full ISO is unrealistic (not everyone has that much patience!), especially when the majority of the quotes are just you saying "null".
- Not repeating a reason when asked is unhelpful, and my brief skim of the ISO didn't show up anything convincing.
- the reason for Lorde's "unwillingness" is pretty clear: Lorde has put her vote on the scummiest player in her opinion (you), you says this should change, and so Lorde asks to whom
- scum cannot just hammer you at this point. They need 3(+) votes, and even if they coordinated that, we would get a nice list of likely mafians to lynch (so win-win to town).
- therefore there is no guarantee that there is scum on your wagon (and in fact, the amount of attention that gets pushed on them could deter mafia from the wagon).
I'm not tunneling her, she is by far the best case right now. And I'm adding to my case on her while she lets hers on me die but still does not change her vote or post more scumreads.

-She can tomorrow (or, actually, today), and if she's scumreading me, why would she make a vote based off my opinions? And either way, having one player scumhunting for another is not a good thing.
-The w/e meant that I was accepting her logic and giving up that point.
-Um, no. Defending someone else before they get a chance to respond is scummy because it's possible they wouldn't have had an answer, and whoever answered for them gave them an answer.
-If I can write an ISO on a Kindle, the person who it's about can read it. :U
-Fine. She states that she's just pressure-voting me, then attacks me for pressure-voting TE. (PS. Adding backpedaling to my case, between going from thinking its OMGUS to attacking others for thinking it's OMGUS is a very strange mindset shift and it happened really fast.)
-She has promoted no new scumreads on me in a long time, and I've debunked all of her old ones. She's basically holding her vote on me for no reason right now. That shows unwillingness to scumhunt beyond a few points in early D1.
-Good point.
-Another good point.
 

NinjaPenguin

Always standing out from the crowd.
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Sorry, yeah, you're right.


Another weird thing: if this was your main reason, then it should have been included in your vote post, instead of the other two reasons.


You should probably try finding scummy stuff on people who didn't recently get called out and voted by someone else.


This. I don't really think the mindset thing is actually scummy; the only thing that goes on the list of "weird actions" for me is this contradiction:
"Have you [Gekki] not been screaming at me in Discord for like a week about how bad one site's meta is and how different another one is?

Anyway, ##UNVOTE. I implied earlier but possibly didn't spell it out; this is turning out very similar to last game, so I'm really not feeling a mafian flip. (My initial vote was pressure.)


I also am not feeling this Lorde thing, and after reading a couple of pages on it, I'm a bit confused on what the main points actually are. I see sheeping/bandwagoning? This seems like a very weak reason; Lorde is at worst opportunistic scum, at best scumhunting/pressuring town; and so I just generally read it as neutral. Plus, this logic means that anyone who votes after someone else is bandwagoning, which is false. The only legitimate point that I've seen on Lorde is this one by simsands, about Lorde still voting/arguing against Gekki, and Lorde's response to it didn't make me change my mind.

On another note, NP's much more aggressive and isn't flying under the radar, as compared to last game (when he was scum). I don't know what to make of that though, since NP was also representing us on another site at the time, and they could explain things.

What is scummy is that NP was pressuring and focusing mainly on Gekki (this is after commenting on his mindset), and then in the post below, started switching towards pressuring and focusing nearly entirely on Lorde. The kicker is that I don't see any reason for NP's focus to switch so suddenly - it's not like Gekki gave a great defense to the points NP was focused on that should have changed NP's mind there and then.



##VOTE: NP

Also for the record, I've got a few other suspicions.
BB that's not true at all. I pressured both of them at the same time, and I'm pretty sure I haven't revealed who I actually want lynched today besides wanting one reaction out of Gekki. I can speak more on why I switched to pressuring Lorde just as must as Gekki if you really want me to, but it's not some huge shift like you're trying to insinuate.
And I'm not sure what Simsands said that I didn't. The one point on Lorde for me (her not being able to justify her vote on Gekki) was equivalent to what sim said.
 

NinjaPenguin

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These are the post that are me shifting from pure Gekki to pure Lorde apparently:
That's your point? Then let's imagine this scenario:
You're scum Gekki. BB has asked a question that from what I can tell saying that TE didn't OMGUS scummily. Why do you ignore it and vote TE partially for the OMGUS, knowing that will get suspicion on you?


This is the kind of WIFOM that someone ignoring a point provides. It's not a good case at all.


Then why be so negative in tone? Why not "Why would we switch RVS votes again? We've never done it before in the games I've played." Pointless didn't need to be added unless you were trying to convey something with it.
Telling Lorde her logic is bad at the top and pressure Gekki at the bottom.
FTR, my vote was to see if TE would freak out from my pressure and my question and answer something ridiculous such as it actually working in the past. I was still basically on RVS until this morning.


Cool. We'll lynch you D2 after we get Lorde D1 because I'm not liking her either.
This bottom comment is a test to see Gekki's reaction and how much he'd fish for a Lorde lynch after I implied to him he'd have a chance (and yes, he did not do well at that but the plan was to let him continue).
Today please. She can't have more than 20 posts.

"Curious coordination" scumtells never work and IDK why people try to make them. Posting at the same time is nothing but pure coincidence, scumbuddy or not.
And Lorde's smart enough that she is very likely not gonna be so obvious by buddying BB if they both are scum.
This is me defending someone's point against Lorde.
Whoever said that is wrong because you had no real need to do anything more than you did.
Now then, can you tell me what players in this game look suspicious to you and why? Preferably, can you name one that nobody else has?
No Lorde or Gekki.
Gekki, mind removing all points that actually apply to yourself to in all future cases? I find it strange to read someone as scum for something you're insinuating that you do as town, unless it's extremely off meta.

That means all that's left is:
-OOC sheepy mentality~Although neither sheepy nor mentality are the words I'd use to describe this, her lack of being able to justify her vote rings a lot of alarm bells for me. This is really what's pinging me badly from Lorde.
-Tunneling (It seems like she's out of points that haven't been debunked on me, but still isn't moving her vote.)~Somewhat applicable to you too, though you backpedaled once you realized your tunneling was stupid.
-Somewhat over-protective of TE~Chainsaw defense argument only applies if we see a TE flip.

Mind trying to keep up that kind of stuff out throughout the whole game? Because being too hasty to lynch you is a good point that I didn't notice.
As you watch us play, try to slowly absorb what we do, and try to do some of the scumhunting yourself (or at least comment on cases and/or stuff you find illogical).
Tells Gekki that his case on Lorde sucks. Only one point I actually acknowledged was good.
There's nothing like BB described, so:
To BB: Don't make a case on me that actually has nothing of the sort in my posts.
To The Town: Don't mindlessly sheep his idea like all of you did because he's BB. Read my posts he's describing and see for yourself.
 

Draskk

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These are the post that are me shifting from pure Gekki to pure Lorde apparently:
Telling Lorde her logic is bad at the top and pressure Gekki at the bottom.

This bottom comment is a test to see Gekki's reaction and how much he'd fish for a Lorde lynch after I implied to him he'd have a chance (and yes, he did not do well at that but the plan was to let him continue).

This is me defending someone's point against Lorde.

No Lorde or Gekki.

Tells Gekki that his case on Lorde sucks. Only one point I actually acknowledged was good.
There's nothing like BB described, so:
To BB: Don't make a case on me that actually has nothing of the sort in my posts.
To The Town: Don't mindlessly sheep his idea like all of you did because he's BB. Read my posts he's describing and see for yourself.
I didn't sheep BB. :U

Also, these responses from NP make sense to me.
 

Draskk

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@NinjaPenguin, this is a bit late but, why do we need to see a TE flip? If TE flips scum then Lorde looks worse, but defending is definitely interesting even if we don't know whether either player is scummy or not, because it's a form of buddying.
 

NinjaPenguin

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Because, to me, Lorde and you are at the same level of scummyness (sorry if the word doesn't exist), but there was (and there is) a better case built on her than on you.
Make a case on BB if you wish to. That way, we can all read them and try to decide which one is the best.
I didn't sheep BB. :U

Also, these responses from NP make sense to me.
You and TE were the ones I was calling out for sheeping. TE thought BB's case was good, and you saw me as a secondary scumread from it. That means both of you didn't actually check my posts for evidence, which is really bad play when you only need to go through 10 or so posts.
@NinjaPenguin, this is a bit late but, why do we need to see a TE flip? If TE flips scum then Lorde looks worse, but defending is definitely interesting even if we don't know whether either player is scummy or not, because it's a form of buddying.
We don't need to see a TE flip at all. But Chainsaw Defense arguments on work once the person they may be defending is dead. So if TE dies and is scum, I'll consider that argument. As is, I would prefer to lynch Lorde earlier and the chainsaw defense point is completely null.
 

Draskk

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Make a case on BB if you wish to. That way, we can all read them and try to decide which one is the best.

You and TE were the ones I was calling out for sheeping. TE thought BB's case was good, and you saw me as a secondary scumread from it. That means both of you didn't actually check my posts for evidence, which is really bad play when you only need to go through 10 or so posts.

We don't need to see a TE flip at all. But Chainsaw Defense arguments on work once the person they may be defending is dead. So if TE dies and is scum, I'll consider that argument. As is, I would prefer to lynch Lorde earlier and the chainsaw defense point is completely null.
I read bb's case and I read the list of posts he gave, and I only agreed with one point that it seemed kind of like an unnecessary flip-flop. If you remember, I also pointed out the flaws in bb's case.

A case on bb would actually be interesting.

Alright, that makes sense.
 

NinjaPenguin

Always standing out from the crowd.
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We don't need to see a TE flip at all. But Chainsaw Defense arguments on work once the person they may be defending is dead. So if TE dies and is scum, I'll consider that argument. As is, I would prefer to lynch Lorde earlier and the chainsaw defense point is completely null.
(This is the exact same reason why I'm not going after BB for Chainsaw defense; his case on me may be Chainsaw Defense but Lorde isn't proven scum.)
 
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