I don't suppose that you would think that me agreeing with Camo's post (expressed through my like) shows that I had the same opinion on rp pre-game...
Finished Werewolf XXX: Future in Stasis - GAME OVER! Town Wins! Now w/ Postgame analysis!
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I don't suppose that you would think that me agreeing with Camo's post (expressed through my like) shows that I had the same opinion on rp pre-game...
Quote where.
This is actually quite funny. I mean, out of my last 5 posts, 3 have been in response to you. Of my last 7 posts, 4 have been about you. Yes, I'm pushing and pressuring you, but to say I'm tunnelling you is wrong and the evidence speaks for this clearly.
By your definition of tunnelling, you're tunnelling me to a far greater extent than I am you.
It happened:
I mean, this sounds really good, but I haven't seen this ethos represented in your actions. You haven't really been talking about anyone else's cases or arguments besides your own with the exception of that one post about TGK.
20/21 of your 27 posts in this game are directly about me (arguably 23, but I gave you the BoD). In fact, I think all 21 have you say my name in them. Yes, I went through and counted, and you all can do the same to make sure I'm right too. And I bolded that because I think that's a really important statistic, which really does show how much you've been tunnelling me since you joined the game. You saw that there was momentum behind my lynch and you have only talked about and to other people when they have directly asked you questions. By choice you have talked exclusively about me.
I'd be interested to see if others say the same thing. Please bear in mind that his first post was after the argument had ended (which shows just how much real time the argument actually took up).
Um, the closest post I can find which you describe here is post #169, but even that's not exactly close to what you said I said here. Please quote the post where I was talking about how roleplay wasn't distractive in response to one of your posts, because I think you might have just made it up. :\
Alright then, if you want to refute the point you're going to have to be less vague. What exactly have you learned about and improved within your playstyle, and please quote in this game examples of where your playstyle has visibly changed. Right now you're just trying to find as many ways you can possibly think of to try and defend yourself and trying to attack me without actually thinking about there being any evidence or any real sustenance behind your words (leading to, for example, the massive contradiction with your "you're being too erratic and all over the place with your targets!" followed by "you have insane tunnel vision!".
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Every game I have played on this site I have to say this: I have a scummy demeanour and I will be the first to admit this, and it is because I think about my faction before I think of self-preservation. To nail me as scum, objective evidence is necessary, because I'm subjectively scum in every game. This is why I'm always a target early on; scum like you try to optimise on my appearance and try to convince the townies that I'm scum to get an early mislynch in. Maybe you forgot about this, though, since as you pointed out, we haven't actually played together since Revelation. Most scum are finally more careful with doing this tactic now, but due to that period of us not interacting in the game setting, maybe it slipped your mind?
No no, it definitely slipped your mind.
Actually that is kinda true when I'm scum, though I didn't think of that before. It is hypothetically useful for when I'm mafia, but it happens so rarely that it sorta slipped my mind (my other site doesn't play NOC now and the only time I've been scum on this site is Luis' game back in February). It's definitely useful to an extent, but having a scummy demeanour isn't useful overall, and I think the last time I've endgamed on this site was actually PMJ's game (not Revelation, the time before that) which was at some point in 2014.
I guess the fact that I never make it to the end is a big reason why I act so carelessly and scummy anyway -- I want to make optimum use of the time I have in the game and help the town win as much as I can, despite my scumminess. It's a cycle of sorts I guess
Um, here? Although it appears you're convinced that I was deflecting and not actually responding.
That means nothing. You can respond to other people and still have tunnel vision on. In fact, those seven posts were actually still about me being scum, either directly or indirectly.
Tunneling is defined in my books as what is on the WW master doc, which is what I meant previously:
"Tunnel - Verb. The act of focusing all of your attention on one player while ignoring the rest, even if logic dictates others would be worth your time."
I believe that this definition you're referring to is actually one that you made here: "And you're tunnelling by not talking about anyone besides myself (and you made one post buddying TGK, I guess)."
These definitions, although similar, are different. I am not ignoring other options. TGK is the other major lynch option, and I considered the option in my choice to keep my vote on you. I also made a comment on Cypher, which basically said that I was having difficulty following it, which implies that I am not "ignoring the rest".
Yes, Ik it happened, I just don't recall that being my choice of word.
Commented on above.
There is a few details that you have neglected to bring up. Firstly, I am not like you commenting on every thing you can find, especially on Day 1, meaning there is a sample of much less. I have posted what is important and on my mind. This links to the second problem with this statistic, which is that it completely ignores "likes". Liking is a major way I like to communicate as it shows that I agree with the person. It means that I am reading along, but don't have anything to input. There is even a lot of occasions when people make comments when I'm asleep that is exactly what I would've said if I was awake. Thirdly, my posts aren't completely split up. How many of those posts are solely about you? Did you consider that I talk about others in the same post? Finally, did you consider that I am more conservative than you? I'm not sure if this was the same in Revelation, but I actually am more conservative on Day 1 over other days while I gather reads privately.
Yes, that is the post that kickstarted the argument about if roleplay is distractive or not. Reread the second thing of mine you quoted. You actually used 'distractive' in your response.
First off, I'll identify what I think has changed from Revelation. Firstly, I'm posting less than I used to - many of my old posts lacked contribution. Secondly, on Day 1, I'm letting others who are proficient in pressuring (I am not, imo, proficient) to pressure (as I have discovered this as quite effective Day 1) and then making reads off the pressures. Thirdly, I am (and will be on and after Day 2) trying more effective methods of hunting and making reads over those methods that I blindly used in past WW games.
Oh, btw, the reason I have strive to change my playstyle is that it was often getting me lynched early on FOL, because I was full of loopholes. I also talked to Camo a lot while making/hosting ORAS about reads and stuff, so a lot of my opinions stem from those two things.
So, what have I learnt?
- I have learnt that, particularly in Day 1, jumping around, flailing and making weird accusations is not overly helpful.
- I have learnt that in Day 1, pressuring is quite effective in making reads (and is why people like Camo is super dangerous for the scum Day 1).
- I have learnt that realistically you can't call someone a lurker if they haven't posted overly much Day 1 - a couple of days isn't much of a sample
- I have also learnt that some people appear to be lurking, but are in fact a townie who is gathering reads.
- I've learnt that making gambles, especially as town, doesn't really work, as being the uninformed there is nearly always something that you just don't think of.
- I've learnt that searching for leads makes you see things that aren't there. I made this mistake and the above mistake in Persona 4 on FOL when I was Inno, which contributed to the scum winning with no members killed.
- I've learnt that roles (and to an extent, flips) are not all there is to a game of a mafia, especially if the scum received safe claims.
- I've learnt that it isn't all about if a player is playing different to how they normally play.
- I've learnt that votes contain a huge amount of information on players, and has since been my biggest thing to analyse.
And that's all I can think of at present time. There would be others, although I'd only recall them if a similar situation arises. Also, many of these lessons I've already mentioned/alluded to before in this game.
Also, I'm not going to spend hours scavenging posts showing a difference in playstyle. I'm not that committed to a game.
Anyways, I feel like your argument here is overflowing with WIFOM and isn't really evidence at all.
I know that you are typically scummy in general. However, I don't recall ever seeing you arguing about something like RP that completely distracted from important parts of Day 1, including RVS. I actually thought you were pro-RVS, although I may be wrong there. Basically, I simply can't imagine how the distraction of RVS can be a pro-town thing.
In regards to your tunnel vision, yes you do it a lot. However, I think that the combination of weak evidence and tunnel vision is very scummy, out of norm and once again not a pro-town thing.
You said you had another scum read @bbninjas care to share?
I'm willing to bet it's me because one way or another I always get read as scum also..
Anyways everything that's been said so far is making me read bb even more as scum. All this talk about his playstyle sounds really nice, and it lols like he's contributing but really, all he's saying is that o one knows his new town meta and that Celever is scummy. So in terms of a read bb reads scum central, his contributions have been minimal.
So between him and TGK I'd be quite happy with either lynch.
I'm willing to bet it's me because one way or another I always get read as scum also..
Anyways everything that's been said so far is making me read bb even more as scum. All this talk about his playstyle sounds really nice, and it lols like he's contributing but really, all he's saying is that o one knows his new town meta and that Celever is scummy. So in terms of a read bb reads scum central, his contributions have been minimal.
So between him and TGK I'd be quite happy with either lynch.
@Squirtle Squad
I think you are assuming that I always contribute to [scumhunting] in Day 1, but in truth, I rarely do. Granted, I used to post a lot Day 1, but all there ever was really just me flailing around and not helping.
I think you are assuming that I always contribute to [scumhunting] in Day 1, but in truth, I rarely do. Granted, I used to post a lot Day 1, but all there ever was really just me flailing around and not helping.
Can you specify how this post answered two of my points? Because like I called you out on, nothing in the post was actually related to my case on you (which is why you haven't been able to repeat anything from that post as I've pressured you further).
Please explain to me in great detail how the following post is about you being scum:
Yes, this is exactly what I've been calling you out on.
No no, but you are ignoring other options, because you haven't brought any new ones up DESPITE apparently having one on the backburner. This is tunnelling; there are other options available to you, yet you want to plant your vote and focus all of your attention solely on me as a viable lynch. You expressed that you don't like TGK as an option, and that's fine, but that gives you no excuse to stop talking about other players. Once again, a couple people expressed that they found mordacazir scummy, but you didn't mention him before I called you out on it (and you were active between him being brought into discussion and my calling you out) which is one example of your tunnelling.
No no, you didn't comment on this above. I stated that you have only been paying attention to your arguments and leads about others being scummy, which wouldn't be a bad thing if you didn't just say "I've learned that doing that is a bad thing so I am now giving myself no bias". The one post about TGK is the only post in which you have mentioned anyone else's arguments, so please clarify to me exactly how your statement from earlier is true.
The difference, to be super clear, is that calling you out for tunnelling is you focusing all of your attention on me and not other lynch options. The calling you out here is for a contradiction you made when you talked about how you give your arguments no bias over other people's, despite not reflecting that in your actions.
OK, that's fine. You do only have 30 posts now (boy, I sure am making you be much more active by pressuring you here than you otherwise would be!).
Is that a, uh, good thing? It's important that players share their thoughts about every lynch option as they are brought up so people can see what's popular and what isn't.
Apparently I'm the only important person in this game. D'awww, love you too, bb <3
Please raise your hand if you pay vast swathes of attention to likes. I think Camo probably does, but that's about it besides. I mean, if I'm reading the thread and notice it, I will most likely make a mental note, but I won't write it down.
Here is the huge problem with likes: They are not timestamped, and they are incredibly easy to miss. The people who were actively participating in the thread at the time you went back and liked a load of posts earlier on in the thread will miss your likes, as they had already read the posts without your likes beneath them. This means that if you wait a little while, you can go back and like posts to say that you're contribution while simultaneously flying under the radar hard. I have absolutely no idea what posts you've liked thus far this game, and I have no way to easily check back through the thread and see (whereas with posts I can go on the postings tab on your profile).
Essentially, by liking posts instead of posting a quick one liner saying "this is a really good point and x", you are hiding really hard, trying to fly under the radar, and making it really difficult to see your activity in the game. Common scum tactics.
A large proportion, actually. I'm low on time so I can't go through and check right now, but actually most of your posts in this game are about a paragraph in length, said paragraph being about me (from what I remember from searching through your posts last night).
bbninjas, why are you withholding information from the town? You're gathering reads privately while using that as an excuse to say that you're not tunnelling. We have no way of knowing that you have any reads or any new scum lead because I envision you being stubborn over it and not sharing your lead with any of us, which is so unbelievably anti-town. As shown with @Squirtle Squad's interest in this discussion and everyone else's silence (no doubt formulating reads on you and I) I think you're going to find a mob at your door pretty soon with all of these inconsistencies and contentless comments you're making in a frantic attempt at defense AND offense. Sharing your lead is also now in your best interests of self-preservation, so I would like to see it ASAP. Maybe I'll even agree with the lead and start pressuring you less. Maybe I'll use it as more ammo against you if it's a poor lead or in any way contradicting to any of the playstyle shifts you've mentioned below. Only the strength of your lead will dictate this.
I actually used 'distracting' or something
Anyway, that was after the argument had ended -- I even linked the conclusions post in that response to you! I then royally ended it when you tried to continue it in response to what I said by literally saying "the argument has ended, stop talking about it please, I've already talked about the conclusions I've derived from it". That post kickstarted nothing.
I think you're saying that discussion about the argument was part of the argument itself. This is untrue, as having the argument but not analysing it would have been a lot of wasted time.
This would be fine if many of your posts in this game also don't lack contribution.
Who, exactly? Camo? Me? I'm not proficient in pressuring either (though I must say I think I've done a mighty fine job with you here!). Who exactly are you referring to here? It seems like you're just buddying Camo, honestly.
Such as?
Funny that you should say that given the huge amount of contradictions you've had in this discussion with me. You never used to have these loopholes, so I think your playstyle shift has actually been negative for you as far as that's concerned.
Ok, so for this whole list of reads I plan on going through and talking about how none of these things are translating in your playstyle, because I fully believe they're not. The only thing you've said which you're doing and that you actually are doing is posting less, which is arguably counterproductive (subjective, I know, but bear with). The reason why I deleted all of the points except for those two is that you've already contradicted those two since the tl;dr here:
I thought that you can't call anyone a lurker on Day 1, and that people who appear to be lurking are in fact a townie gathering reads?
I mean, that's fair, but also possibly your downfall as far as this very evidence-heavy discussion is concerned.
I will tell you exactly the point of this discussion point:
1) It shows how you are panicking hard under very little pressure (just little ol' me talking to you!). What you say you do and what you actually are doing are directly conflicting, which shows that you are just saying what you think could be good as a means of looking towny and deflecting attention away. If you really were town, you would consider my points more carefully and come up with more objective answers. Your answers are currently full of opinion and fluff.
2) If I can disprove your actions being this "sparkly new town meta" you apparently have, the only other alternative is that it is your scum meta. A playstyle shift to this degree is very significant, especially for a more experience player, and I'm not willing to just drop it at "amelioration derived from a totally different meta". To me, that's not acceptable.
3) People garner all kinds of different derivations from discussions like this, and it allows everyone reading along to get better reads of you and I. You are classically difficult to read (at least for me) so I only see this as a pro-town ting.
I'm pro-RVS to the extent of "alright, let's just do it unless there's a clear alternative, since arguing about it will get us nowhere". It IS a necessary phase if we are totally uninformed, but the argument about RP makes us not totally uninformed -- in fact, it gave us more leads than RVS ever would have done in a much shorter amount of time.
Your phrasing here makes it sound like I said somewhere "I do tunnel vision a lot". I do not, and never said that. I think many will agree that the evidence against you here is somewhat significant, so your second point is moot.
@Reinforce, what's the deal with subs? @Ice Espeon still hasn't posted yet, so I think a sub might be due for him at 72 hours.
For the record, of the current vote leaders, I like the TGK vote the most. I have a neutral read on you (BB) and a very slight inno read on Celever. Here is my graphical representation of Celever and BB's argument. Of the non-leaders, I also have a slight scum read on Chaos Jackal. Also I scum read Camo but I always scum read Camo and I think it's mostly because my subconscious brain just wants an excuse to make him to stop posting. These are mostly vague, unformed feelings based on skimming the thread occasionally over the weekend and none of them do I feel strong enough about to vote at this time.
While I'm at school, I would like input from all you guys on this discussion and on bbninjas in general. Any additional pressure would be lovely, but also just as useful would be for you to tell me to stop pressing him if you think I'm just wasting the town's time. Even if you're in the middle right now, it'd be nice to know. I'm just very aware that it's mainly just been me and bb posting in the last 12 hours (maybe even about 20 at a stretch).
And just as I was about to click post, Thena ninja'd me to it. She's inputting a bit more D1 this game, and I love it! <3
And just as I was about to click post, Thena ninja'd me to it. She's inputting a bit more D1 this game, and I love it! <3
Well, I think that there is worth to be had from it. It does feel like a couple things we were discussing were in the realms of trivial, though
I don't really like D1s in general, and I hate them even more here because they go on forever and it seems like everybody feels the need to find reasons for everything and it always ends up in a lot of slapfighting and nitpicking and meta discussion. Almost everything people have been saying feels very trivial to me. (Please note that trivial in this case does not mean completely worthless, but neither does it have near the level of important that the people voting and arguing about seem to feel like it does.)
6 very long posts guys, is this normal for D1?
So I assume the lynch options for the day are Celever, TGK and bbninjas. If you want my opinion on someone else, feel free to ask!
From all the posts Celever has made, I have found nothing that would make me consider him scummy. As I've previously stated, rather on the contrary, what I've seen from him would be nothing more than idiocy coming from an anti-town. That said, I can see a very odd scenario with him being scum, but I definitely wouldn't place my bet on it for the day, unless we had no other choices.
Right now, I feel that TGK probably is our best bet. He's been acting very scummy, this has been stated enough times for me to not have to go into greater detail. While I feel that we might miss his ability if he flipped town, it could possibly turn out fatal if we left him and he turned out to be scum. If nothing else comes up, this is where my vote will go at the end of the day.
bbninjas, my gosh, you're not making yourself look any better. You keep making contradictions, and from as far as I can see, you're making up stories that make you look better and others worse. Why are you so heavily defending yourself when only Celever is on your back and almost no one has shown any sign of thinking of joining the wagon? With things the way they are right now, I would be very happy with looking into your potential lynch for tomorrow.
From all the posts Celever has made, I have found nothing that would make me consider him scummy. As I've previously stated, rather on the contrary, what I've seen from him would be nothing more than idiocy coming from an anti-town. That said, I can see a very odd scenario with him being scum, but I definitely wouldn't place my bet on it for the day, unless we had no other choices.
Right now, I feel that TGK probably is our best bet. He's been acting very scummy, this has been stated enough times for me to not have to go into greater detail. While I feel that we might miss his ability if he flipped town, it could possibly turn out fatal if we left him and he turned out to be scum. If nothing else comes up, this is where my vote will go at the end of the day.
bbninjas, my gosh, you're not making yourself look any better. You keep making contradictions, and from as far as I can see, you're making up stories that make you look better and others worse. Why are you so heavily defending yourself when only Celever is on your back and almost no one has shown any sign of thinking of joining the wagon? With things the way they are right now, I would be very happy with looking into your potential lynch for tomorrow.
And here I thought that I had only one page to read. The argument between Celever and bbninjas is pointless; long posts with absolutely nothing to say on both sides. Nitpicking and straw-grasping. These have no point on Day 1. If anything, it makes me a bit suspicious of bbninjas, just because he's getting so defensive over nothing. And Celever, do me a favor and stop writing "many people will agree with me" or any slight variation of it. They don't. Stop sounding like a politician, they're usually liars.
Also, apparently Athena finds me slightly scummy from skimming the thread. Quite possibly because of very few posts, or my posts having similar theme and points, although I dunno how much of that she has read by skimming. I'll leave it at that.
mordacazir is definitely clueless, but with the way scum chat often (mal)functions and how he followed tgk before, there's a good chance he isn't receiving good directions (or even checking in). And to answer your question, no, long posts are always rare, not just on Day 1, sadly. Even more sad is the fact that these specific long posts have about as much value as a vague one-liner.
simsands, since you so kindly offered to do it, could you please state what other possible scum you have in mind?
I'm still on Celever for this. The argument between him and bbninjas hasn't made my opinion of him better. I still think there's a very good chance he's scum. tgk remains second on the list, and I'd definitely go for him after Celever. In case tgk flips scum, next one is mordacazir. bbninjas can be an option after these three are out of the way.
Also, apparently Athena finds me slightly scummy from skimming the thread. Quite possibly because of very few posts, or my posts having similar theme and points, although I dunno how much of that she has read by skimming. I'll leave it at that.
mordacazir is definitely clueless, but with the way scum chat often (mal)functions and how he followed tgk before, there's a good chance he isn't receiving good directions (or even checking in). And to answer your question, no, long posts are always rare, not just on Day 1, sadly. Even more sad is the fact that these specific long posts have about as much value as a vague one-liner.
simsands, since you so kindly offered to do it, could you please state what other possible scum you have in mind?
I'm still on Celever for this. The argument between him and bbninjas hasn't made my opinion of him better. I still think there's a very good chance he's scum. tgk remains second on the list, and I'd definitely go for him after Celever. In case tgk flips scum, next one is mordacazir. bbninjas can be an option after these three are out of the way.
In the last 2 pages i mean.
Right now, I do not have anyone in particular who I believe to be scum, though I do think that one of the people who were arguing against Celever at the start of the day are scum, assuming he is town. But to be honest, I mostly skimmed through all of that, so I will probably have to go back and reread it when I have the time.
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